|
|
|
| Home Made Boards (6188 Posts)
|
| Topic |
Home Made Boards |
|
|
|
On 8/4/2004
Frank
wrote in from
United States
(24.153.nnn.nnn)
I was afraid to leave mine running so I clamped the tube. I will be buying a valve to splice into the tube for next time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 8/3/2004
Yan0
wrote in from
United States
(69.164.nnn.nnn)
Sorry guys.. More questions
I am trying to avoid making a pressure regulator. I can't get ahold of some stuf (an old fuel pressure regulator) and I have a vlam ready to be cut out, and pressed (I can't decide weather I am going to press it with 3ply on one side, or try to get doublle bias glas to hold camber/concave. I don't have any 0/90 glass... otherwise that is what I would do.) So basically, I want to get the thing up and running.. but the questions...
can I leave my refrigerator pump running until the epoxy has cured.. even if there are no leaks? I would think that it would blow the pump.. which would be no good. can I put a valve in a line that allows me to close the line, making it so that the pump can be turned off, and the bag retains its pressure (or lack therof). If I am talking about doing things that simply shouldnt be done, that would be nice to know as well, and I will have to keep trying to find a way to get a pressure regulator...
Thanks again
Yan0
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 8/3/2004
frank
wrote in from
United States
(24.153.nnn.nnn)
Check around with your local air conditioning repair type companies. I got a used pump for free. It works great and its been running for well over a year. Teds kit is a great and cheap way to get into bagging, and he has an answer to any stupid question I could come up with.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 8/2/2004
Ted
wrote in from
United States
(24.165.nnn.nnn)
There are video's of the foam mold process on our site at roarockit.com. The process is easy even if you build everything yourself.
Be wary about the pumps on Ebay. Find out what they were used for before you buy one. Some times they are used for pumping bio-waste. I bought 5-6 pumps in the last year. One was full of some sort of chemical that I had to clean and at least one other gave up the ghost after 20 minutes of running. All the others I bought work fine. Be carefull as most of them come from labs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 8/2/2004 Duane
wrote in from
United States
(165.121.nnn.nnn)
I put a coat of resin on the core, lightly, and I thoroughly wet out each layer of fiber individually. I just did one and took some pics. The key is to wet everything out with a china bristle brush, and squeegee off excess resin with a plastic body filler spreader. The most devastating flaw is to fail to wet the fiber, laying it on dry will cause problems. I also flip the layer when putting it on, wet side down. I pre-cut all pieces with the edges taped to prevent fraying, and use a melamine shelf as a wet-out surface. The melamine is smooth and the resin does not stick to it. Squeegee and smooth with the brush, then bag it. I have the bag film attached to a frame tightly, so it will not wrinkle. I'm working on a 6 ply maple slalom board, with one 45/45 layer of carbon, and one 0/90 on each side. Concave edges and a very slight camber. This one will be 30x 8 1/4, then I'll make one 34" with the same basic design. They should be very stiff, and torsionally more rigid than any board out there. None of the commercial boards use much carbon, and very little in the 45 direction. No glass filler for this one. I may name it the La Brea model, a little gnat is stuck in the resin, on the board.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 8/2/2004
Yan0
wrote in from
United States
(69.164.nnn.nnn)
Duane,
Thanks for the info!!, I will get cracking on my pump ASAP. Just a few more questions.... when you bag like that, where does the eopxy go, and how do you deal with it? more importantly, do you not need to wory because you get the epoxy to fiber ratio spot on? and related to the last two, it sounded like you lay the eopxy on the board before you put the fiber on, and you lay the fiber on dry. I know very little, but I always thought you put the fiber on first, then epoxied.
Thanks
Yan0
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 8/2/2004 Duane
wrote in from
United States
(68.15.nnn.nnn)
Regarding cheap vacuum bagging, the key is to get a good, cheap pump. The refrigerator pumps work well, but require a little tinkering. Also they can send a plume of aerosol oil into the air after running for a while. Fit a hose to the exhaust and route outside if you can. I found a great lab pump on eBay for $75, a $1200 unit that had never been run. For bagging film use clear high quality garbage bags. Seal them with duct tap (Tuck brand preferably). Garbage bags will not stick to resin so there is your release as well. I don't think minimum weight is that important on skateboards so I don't use peel ply or absorbent layers, I just wet and squeegee the resin before applying the fiber, and I have a good feel for proper resin ratio. I use rolled up dry fiberglass cloth around the perimeter for a breather, to keep the vacuum from pinching off. For hose air hose from Home Depot will not collapse for a few bucks a foot. I do not use a vacuum gage. With a pump that good you can hear leaks, and I ignore very small leaks, again the good pump running all the time will overcome small leaks. I don't use crushable foam so have no need to limit vacuum. 14 psi all the way. I made the attachment for the hose to the bag by carving a block of high density foam I already had, and tapping an air fitting right into it. Cheap brushes and plastic squeegees from Pep Boys (auto body putty spreaders). Some hose clamps. regular carnuba wax from the auto parts store for release wax. Total well under $100. For triple that you can get kit with a lousy pump and all the fancy films and gear and get a worse result. the nice thing about the 3 mil clear garbage bags is that you can lay the fiber, place the film on and smooth it completely without vacuum, squeegee out bubbles, then apply the pump and get a wrinkle-free surface. Oh, and I do one side at a time. I have not found a way to do both sides perfectly, infusion would work but that's alot of trouble if not commercially producing. My $75 pump :)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 8/2/2004
Yan0
wrote in from
United States
(69.164.nnn.nnn)
Hunter,
I am not an expert in either of these areas, but I'll give it a shot. I get all of my wood from a local cabinet maker, I use birch panels, 3 and 5 ply. I have tried to find a similar plywood made from maple, but I have not succeeded. I think you need to cook up your own maple ply by alternating sheets, 0 and 90 degrees
As far as mold making goes, I have heard of people making them from cement etc etc, but what seems to be easiest is to make one from plywood. You can go about it any number of ways. Check out http://www.toothless.be.tf and go to instructions for one way (this is an awesome site with plenty of info). Or you can check out my site www.geocities.com/runyan0/pages/projects.html . Look at Jigs. I lost my camera, but I just stole my dad's so I should be able to get a bunch of stuff up soon. My first two jigs are pretty self explanitory. The first one worked well. I have made multiple jigs since then, and simply not put them up. I have found that a jig like my jig 3 works best. By raising/lowering the middle rib, and then shaping foam around it, you can add concave reliably (I had some serious issues doing it with jigs like jig 2.
Many people make jigs from foam, I am going to get to that in a day or two, I am putting together a hotwire, but until then, I couldnt tell you. Toohless has a good page about it though.... you could coat one side of the foam jig with glass or something to seal it, and vaccum bag the board.
Speaking of vaccumm bagging, A while ago someone said something about bagging on a budjet. How?. I looked online quickly last night, and it seemed that the best plan would be to get an adaptor for a compressor, and do it that way. I have no idea how/where to find the appropriate fims. I was planning on building a pump from a refrigerator compressor.. but it seemed more reliable (and dare I say safer...) to get something made by people who know what they are doing.
Thanks
Yan0
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 8/1/2004
Hunter
wrote in from
United States
(152.86.nnn.nnn)
I'm looking for a supplier of maple/birch/oak veneer. I need at least 100 sheets. 8"x34" I am also interested in mold making processes and materials.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 7/31/2004 Brian
wrote in from
United States
(4.152.nnn.nnn)
Cool. I did not know the heat resistance was better for the vinyl ester. I got tired of working with the shtuff because it makes my eyes water after a while and irritates my skin (the wife is more reactive to it so that pretty much caps the issue right there).
As for softening with epoxy, I use a straight 2:1 laminating epoxy mix for most of my work. Tack cures in about 45 min. and is sandable in broad daylight after 3 hrs. with no gum loading.
It comes from Fiberglass Coatings, Inc., in Florida (www.fgci.com). They do a lot of boat work and mix and match their own to some extent so it may be designed to avoid the softening issue.
Vacum pump is best if begged, borrowed or stolen but for the one or two uses now and again....
I normally stear clear of Sears shtuff but the R2 sized canister vac that came with above mentioned wife is cheap and does well and while noisey I cannot kill it so it stays in the other room with about 25' of hose running into the work area.
Duane, I have another project coming up that isn't a skateboard but will use much of what we are talking about.
If you have time, would you be interested in a quick summary off board by email?
Let me know.
Brian
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 7/30/2004 Duane
wrote in from
United States
(165.121.nnn.nnn)
Vinyl ester is preferable to epoxy for room temperature cure because the heat resistance is better. It also costs 1/3. Especially with black boards (grip tape or bare carbon), the epoxy softens too much on hot days. This isn't so with heat cure epoxy, its all around better but the hassle of heat curing is considerable.
i'm not sure about the shop vac, you'd better have no leaks because you certainly can't have the vac dead-head with no air flow for more than a few minutes, it'll burn. A proper vacuum pump can run for hours, a small leak, no matter.
Mercury, the two-part hobby foam will give a much better result than the spray can. You could staple shrink film to one side of the board, shrink it tight, and spread foam on top of that. Mixing is key.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 7/30/2004
Brian
wrote in from
United States
(4.152.nnn.nnn)
Been lurking on the board and thought I would jump in on a couple of items.
Plywood can be soaked and bent but it has a tendancy to snap back over time regardless of the glue used between the ply layers. Unless the the glue softens to a plastic state that allows the plys to slide over each other during the bending process then re-hardens, all that is happening is the plys on the outside of the radius are stretching while the plys on the inside of the curve compress somewhat.
I use the baltic birch exclusively because of the material consistency but laminate the kicks the way boards used to be made.
The boards are sealed with a high strength laminating epoxy when finshed. Sealing a bent board will help maintain any curves added through soaking/bending but the end result is the same.
Bending plywood can be combined with epoxy laminating using three or more layers of 3-6mm plywood. This works very well and the result will hold indefinitely because the lamination barrier remains strong and fights the elastic movement of the plys that takes place during any unbending.
Epoxy should be used instead of polysty resin whenever possible due to strength and environmental concerns though many think it is harder to work with.
Vacum bagging can be accomplished on the cheap using a good shop vac (extra pressure bonus points if you can force some of the out flow from the work-bag into another bag surrounding the work which ='s over 14 PSI) and six mil plastic doubled over, stapled and duct taped. This process is best used on joining/surfacing work larger than skateboards unless you are simply skinning the work with a pliable material like resin soaked glass, fiber or very thin veneers.
Bending and laminating skateboards/snowboards is better done home brew using a press made from a couple of 4-8 ton bottle jacks and multiple 2X10's to form a frame. Costs less than $100US but takes time to make and use.
This is a bit more than a hobby for me but the way I look at it, the world can always use more craftsmen so feel free to drop me a line if you have any questions. My work website in perpetual progess is www.morgantecharts.com. Usually just an picture or two on the front of the sight.
Regards
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 7/30/2004 Mercury
wrote in from
United States
(208.59.nnn.nnn)
Duane, By “polyfoam”, I meant the stuff that comes in the spray can for filling voids, sold at HomeDumpo. You suggested it to me a couple weeks ago as a way to temporarily fill mounting holes. But yeah, you just deduced the general idea of my plan. Would the pourable stuff be better? I’ve never worked with either of these substances yet. I don’t have a router (tho this may be time to get one), so I was thinking maybe cutting the voids all the way through the wood and then fastening wax paper to the bottomside of the deck to stop the foam from expanding out the bottom.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 7/30/2004 Duane
wrote in from
United States
(68.15.nnn.nnn)
Mercury, re-read your post and maybe you were talking about filling the routed-out areas with pourable polyfoam. That might work pretty well...you'd end up with a huge uneven pile of foam stuck to the wood, but it could be trimmed down flush with a bow saw and sanded out even with a wide sanding block. I kinda like that idea. I do know the polyfoam makes a permanent bond to plywood. The key with that stuff is to mix well very quickly, a drill-moumted mixer in a large plastic cup (polyethylene cup, not styrene !) works well, then pour immediately and get out of the way. I suppose you could use a spatula to spread it when it first starts to foam. I may have to try this, it would be a hell of a lot easier than trying to cut foam sheets to fit a cavity. If you wanted to get fancy, you could even sand the foam concave and use that side as the top, and apply a bending force when laying up to get camber or rocker.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 7/30/2004 Duane
wrote in from
United States
(68.15.nnn.nnn)
By polyfoam you mean two-part stuff you see in hobby stores ? Mountains in Minutes, PolyFoam etc ? That is polyisocyanurate, which is polyurethane, and it may be used with any resin. Foaming your own blocks doesn't work very well in my experience, it is difficult to get good mixing required when the damn stuff starts foaming right away, and you get uneven cell size. Pre-cut is much easier to deal with. I once was involved in driving from Indiana to Pittsburgh with a 8x2x4 foot block of foam strapped to the top of a car, gas mileage suffered a bit. Make sure you get RIGID polyurethane foam, foamed elastomer polyurethane is getting popular but it is rubbery and not what you want. I find you want something along the lines of 10-15 lb/ft3 for composites, the lighter stuff is too hard to shape without damaging it, and the heavier stuff is just that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 7/29/2004 Mercury
wrote in from
United States
(208.59.nnn.nnn)
Duane, I have thought the same about the big surf-style deck being unweildy, and considered regular vac-baging as a solution but it’s still a little beyond my grasp and expertise. Would the polyfoam work with vinyl ester?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 7/29/2004 Sam
wrote in from
United States
(24.34.nnn.nnn)
I just built 2 decks (1 fiberglass) and I am working on the third. I didn't soak them I just bent and glues them - They are holding up GREAT. for info on how to make your own go to http://www.geocities.com/toothlesslongboards/ They have tons of pics, info, and the people are really nice and will answer any questions you have.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 7/29/2004 Duane
wrote in from
United States
(68.15.nnn.nnn)
Foams for surfboards are polyurethane generally. Polystyrene is hard to shape accurately and melts with use of vinyl ester resin. Sheets of polyurethane aren't too expensive, and usually come 2x4 feet which ships well and give 2-3 boards depending upon what you are doing. The nice thing is it comes in many thicknesses so you can tune flex. Try John. R Sweet for carbon, nice service and price but the website seems down today (just got some last week so I hope they are not gone). I haven't done it yet, but I thought a durable structure would be to use 1/2" birch and rout the center out of the board, leaving 2-3 plies, and fill that with 3/8" foam. The rails all the way around would be solid, as would the truck mounting areas, nose and tail. I'd like to make a big surf-style board like that, since all the boards 48" or more are bricks for weight, and don't carry very well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 7/28/2004
Yan0
wrote in from
United States
(69.164.nnn.nnn)
Probably should have mentioned: The foam I am planning/thinking of using is extruded polystyrene (I think... I dont have it with me). In any case, its the 2" pink board commonly used for insulation. I would rip it down to width (probably about 1/2"-3/4"). If I am not mistaken, the same species of foam is used for some surfboards. I know very little about foams... but this one is cheap, and light which works for me. If I am totally of track.. get me back on it.
Thanks
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 7/28/2004
Yan0
wrote in from
United States
(132.198.nnn.nnn)
'sup y'all
Lookin to pick a brain or two. I am trying to make a speed board (eventually more than that) with a foam core. I started thinking about it when I wanted to make a thick board (allowing composites to load up better) without adding the weight that a thick board brings. My first thought was to have a sandwich of wood and foam. 5ply on either side of a foam sheet. Then I began to worry about the foam shearing, and destroying anthing resembling strength. The next plan was to alternate 5ply ribs and foam. I would rout out thin channels in the outer sheets of the 5ply, put in the ribs, and then put foam between the ribs. Plan A would be easier, but I get the feeling that plan B may yeild a better, and more durable board. When the wood/foam work is done I am going to wrap the whole shebang in a layer or two of carbon. I am trying to get ahold of 11(or so) oz 2x2 twill, but as of yet I havent. If all goes to plan, you will see no wood or foam, just pure carbon goodness.
Ideas?
P.S. Duane, thanks for all the info on carbon/composites. I just cooked up 40" pintail. 10ply, 1/4" concave, and 1" camber. I put a layer of 5oz carbon on either side... and its perfect.
Cheers, Yan0
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 7/28/2004 bending plywood
wrote in from
United States
(198.81.nnn.nnn)
thanks for the heads-up duane. is there any way to bend a kick tail into a flat piece of plywood? if not, i guess ill go oldschool & glue a wedge on the tail..
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 7/27/2004 Duane
wrote in from
United States
(68.15.nnn.nnn)
Soaking plywood to bend it does not work. Even if the glue is "waterproof", which few are, the plys will expand differently. When wood gets wet, it expands very little in length, and greatly in width. Even if the glue stays intact, the long plies will expand one way, and the cross-ply the other, and the plywood will be blown apart. Even if it looks good and solid, it isn't. Trust me, I tried this every which way many years ago and it just doesn't do it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 7/26/2004 drex
wrote in from
(198.81.nnn.nnn)
Chief, Thanks for the info. At least I know I'm not only one who doesn't know anything about plywood(just kidding) I guess I'll soak a small piece & see what happens..
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 7/24/2004 Chief Red Beef
wrote in from
(24.185.nnn.nnn)
Ok, since no one else seems to be answering, I'll give it a go...
From what I've managed to gather, Multiply comes in several different grades.
Some have exterior glue (water proof or water resistant), and some have interior glue.
I have been told that the difference is easy to see because exterior glue multiply has black or purple glue between the plys and interior multiply has clear glue (can't see it).
However, I have ordered (on two separate occasions) exterior grade multiply and It came with no visible glue between the plys.
I was told by those who are supposedly in the know that these were definately NOT exterior glue multiply.
However, I have soaked (for about a week) the tails of some (about 8) of these "interior" grade multiply boards and bent them into kicktails with no problem whatsoever. (and these were 3/4" thick sheets).
Apparently if it is interior glue multiply, you will screw it up if you try and soak and bend it because the glue will no longer hold properly and either the tail will de-lam or will be "mushy".
If it's Exterior glue it won't be a problem.
Basically, I don't know, and neither does anyone else (apparently) so you may as well try it and see what happens.
Or not.
Hope this helps. (not).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On 7/21/2004 drex
wrote in from
(198.81.nnn.nnn)
hey, I have some left over baltic birch plywood from a home improvement project I just completed. I was wondering if it's possible to bend the stuff to make a skateboard with a kicktail. I've bent marine grade plywood by soaking it a bathtub for a couple days, but will regular (non-marine grade) plywood hold up to the soaking?
thanks
|
|
|
|
|
