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| Home Made Boards (6188 Posts)
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Home Made Boards |
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On 9/11/2000 waxfoot
wrote in from
(63.10.nnn.nnn)
My two cents on glassing from surfboard construction experience for Blah and Hugh -
Trimming excess glass is a heck of a lot easier when the glass/resin mixture has 'gone off' (hardened) but is not rock hard yet. (see one of my old posts on the same subject) Cuts with a razor blade no problem. Not being the expert on the wood/fiberglass adhesion as Hugh is, I can't say for sure, but going on my experience with surfboards, I would imagine that once your resin has gone off, you could take the board out of the clamps and trim the glass. You're not going to squeeze any more excess resin out anyway, and any adhesion that is going to happen is already done. Other than that, if you wait for it to harden you're going to end up with the same problem, and might as well break out your grinder to take the glass down. I still recommend the "Ding Repair Scriptures" book for good glassing info. Again, I realize it's designed for surfboard repair, but gives some good info on resin/catalyst mixing etc. and general glassing suggestions.
My thoughts on Hugh's contemplation about thinner multiple layers is this - I'm sure there's a whole lot more that goes into it, but there is a combination of the weave of the glass, the thickness of the woven fibers, the amount of resin held by those fibers, and the overall flexibility of the whole shmeal deal. As we've talked about before, polyester resin has absolutely no structural strength by itself at all - it all comes from the fiberglass. Bear with me as I try to get this out of my head.... Thicker glass (8 oz ; 12 oz) has thicker fiber and thus holds a thicker amount of resin. This combination has good strength to it (they use 12 oz. for boats) but does not flex as well without structural failure. Think bigger fibers and bigger weave means larger gaps between the weave holding more resin, remembering resin by itself is not strong.... Catch my breath after all of that. On to thinner, lighter glass. 2,4, and 6 oz. glass, as you can see by looking at them, are tighter weave, thinner woven stranded fibers. This means that the holes between the weave are smaller and thus hold less resin. This doesn't mean that they are weaker, but rather more flexible as the structure is more reliant on the glass itself. Glass flexes better than resin. Thus, two layers of 4oz. (making up an 8oz. combo.) would be more flexible than a single 8 oz. layer. At least that's the way I see it in my head... :) It doesn't take you any more time to lay up two layers, as remember, you lay them both on at the same time and then saturate with resin. Doing each one separately will cause you to have more resin (and more weight) than you want. Saturate well, and squeegie (or put under pressure, or vacuum bag) well to get the excess out without ending up with dry spots. I know you know all of this Hugh - it was more for Blah's benefit.
Another thought I had on the multiple layers of cloth - when you lay up one layer of thicker cloth, you have just on weave - one structure. When you lay up 2 (or more), you are not likely (even if you tried) to line up the weave exactly the same, and thus have a 'staggered' (for lack of a better word) structure, which would be stronger as well... I suppose for variations you could have one layer square with the board and the other set at an angle.... I'm sure Hugh has done much of the experimentation. Of course all of this huge rambling is going on the assumption that you guys are using standard woven fiberglass....
Good luck and do yourself (and your future kids) a favor -
*wear a mask when you are glassing and sanding!!!!* Polyester resin, styrene, and acetone are all hell on your lungs and skin and other misc. internal organs (not to mention that acetone can be absorbed through your skin) and glass fiber dust has this annoying factor of fitting just perfectly into the little sacs in your lungs (alveoli?) And they never come back out. Just ask any of the old glassers / sanders from the 60's and 70's who never wore masks and they will tell you. Work safe and skate another day....
aloha ka kou
waxfoot
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On 9/10/2000
hugh r
wrote in from
(205.216.nnn.nnn)
Blah, The key is to use very sharp/sturdy single edged blades (Get the good made in the USA ones, the $2 per 100 blades are JUNK) You might go through 2 blades per sheet... fiberglass is pretty tough.
Glassing then shaping should work well as long as your glass is real dry and secure. Fiberglass will sand very smooth. You can wet sand it with paper in the 200+ grit range and get beautiful results.
Another thing that I have learned is that with fiberglass on skate decks... thinner is better. Multiple layers of very light cloth ends up being stronger than single fat layers. I am not entirely sure why (herbn?) but it sure seems to be so.
Looking forward to seeing your deck... Hr
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On 9/10/2000 Blah
wrote in from
(166.90.nnn.nnn)
Okay, now glassing questions.
I just had one hell of a time trimming glass off the board. I had a knife and I was just sawing off the excess, it was a major pain. My question, what is the easiest way to trim off excess glass? (Near the end I got real frustrated and took out my skil saw, and that seem to work okay, but sometimes hit wood instead.)
Would it be viable to soak, bend, glass, THEN cut out the shape of the board? And how well does the glass sand?
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On 9/10/2000
hugh r
wrote in from
(205.216.nnn.nnn)
RTV is a silicon sealant that dries solid... 3M makes a good product too. But just about any of the solid drying types will do the job... HR
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On 9/10/2000 Blah
wrote in from
(166.90.nnn.nnn)
Uh, what's RTV?
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On 9/10/2000
hugh r
wrote in from
(205.216.nnn.nnn)
Blah,
On my ruler here is what I have:
Both are 1 5/8" wide center to center...
New pattern is 2 1/8" center to center...
Old pattern is 2 1/2" center to center...
Don't drill all the holes at once... line up and drill two holes on the end... then mount the base plate and drill the other two holes. If you drill the first two holes slightly over, then you will be able to adjust it a little bit to ensure your truck will be straight.
Almost no trucks have exactly lined up holes (not even the really expensive ones are perfect) Not sure why this is, but in my experience it is so.
So take your time and you'll do great... If you do happen to be off on your markings, then that can be fixed too. Simply re-drill the holes slightly oversized... squirt in a little RTV... mount the truck and hold it in position while you tighten the hardware...
Good luck... HR
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On 9/10/2000 Blah
wrote in from
(209.245.nnn.nnn)
Question, what are the measurements of both old school and new school truck hole patterns. I'd like to see if my rulers match up w/ your guy's rulers before I drill truck ones on the mini board I'm making.
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On 9/9/2000
hugh r
wrote in from
(205.216.nnn.nnn)
The first ones never turn out as expected!! HR
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On 9/9/2000 Herbn
wrote in from
(208.192.nnn.nnn)
Actually,i jumped in a little to deep for starters,the clamp takes 5/16 strips (.312)and i'm planning on using Kevlar in between for some impact strength.What i should've done was start with a single 7/16 to 5/8 layer so things would be a lot simpler THEN fancy things up later,but i had visions of making a downhilling supertech Sims Taperkick like construction hence two sheets of vertical lamination with a center ply.
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On 9/8/2000 waxfoot
wrote in from
(63.10.nnn.nnn)
Hey Herbn - when you glued up your board did you end up with a big rectangular chopping block type thing that you're going to shape, or did you give your pieces somewhat of a shape before gluing them up? Second question - how thin (or thick) a board do you end up before glassing? Thin enough to be flexy, or pretty stiff? I was trying to picture in my head what you would use to thin the deck out if you had glued it up in 'chopping block' style... Perhaps I'm thinking that you're gluing up thicker strips than you actually are. Pics would be cool if you had them, and maybe of your clamp too? Unless they were top secret...
mahalo
waxfoot
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On 9/8/2000 Herbn
wrote in from
(216.107.nnn.nnn)
Oh rats!! not that bad really,my vertical lamination came out perfect except one popped as i loosened the clamp,it might have been a dry seam ,a tight spot,i think i'll reglue it with some glass cloth in there to compress/expand with the ever so slight curve in that strip of wood.
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On 9/8/2000 Herbn
wrote in from
(216.107.nnn.nnn)
you forgot to post a site where we can send E-condolences to your next of kin:)
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On 9/7/2000 Ant
wrote in from
(63.195.nnn.nnn)
Im trying to get access to smoe bamboo. Lots of people are recommending bamboo for my boards. IM have to try.
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On 9/7/2000 Ant
wrote in from
(63.195.nnn.nnn)
--------Land Raft----Longboard style
I'm still putting together my site, and ill have the pictures up soon.
This is really hard to explain without pictures. I hope my writing depicts a nice visual for you guys, and i hope it inspires you go out and give it a try.
Material:
Hack Saw, ropes, screws and some trucks (randals preffered) wheels, bearings...etc..
The board I made looks excatly like minture a raft. The boards composed of branches. I cut a couple down from a tree in front of my apartment. The flex of the board will depend on the wheel base, and the diameter of the branches. The length of the branches will also have an effect on the board. I havent experimented with any differnet type of trees, but i think that will play a role in the flex and durablity too. well, after cutting them down to the size you like, i just wire the branches as if i was making a raft. After that, i use a block, a 3" by 6" 1/2" ply wood as the risers and mounter for the trucks. I mount the trucks, wheels, etc.. and its ready to ride. It works pretty well and it is pretty fun. Cheap too. The resoures for this board can be easily obtained.
I had a problems witht the grip tape...but other than that, its a joy to ride. Im try to bomb a hill tonight. Ill let you guys know how it rides.
Ant
PS: Can I post my review in the complete?
If you have any questions, id be happy to answer. but its easy.
Ant
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On 9/7/2000 Herbn
wrote in from
(216.107.nnn.nnn)
Ok,so i didn't get to mixing glue(skate first,glue later)but i did iron out some details.First off lets explain vertical lamination, if you had a one inch thick piece of ash,nice smooth stuff,cut it into half inch wide strips and glue them back together stacked so you have a half inch thick,vertically laminated ash board,i think it interupts sideways grain with glue seams(usually stronger than wood),so there's one advantage,an old picture of Rick Blackhart posing with a split solid birch Tunnelboard comes to mind.But you don't need to stick with one type of wood,add some thin strips of oak for strength/stiffness,maple under the mounting hardware,so the bolts seat nice and don't pull through,some sitka spruce(best strength to weight)but don't put it in the middle or the edges(not to durable),this is sort of my layup,some dark walnut might have been nice for contrast,but a few different woods make for a nice looking functional board,vineer plywood has a deader feel than real demensional lumber, lastly add fiberglass for springyness and cross grain(resists spliting and adds torsional stregth),yee haa!back to my project, I did however put some finnishing touches on my clamp,I had 5 bolts (long kingpins)providing clamping pressure,now i have 14,i put delrin tips on them so they push nice and straight on the billet "jaw" of the clamp,the clamp is a framework of 6061 aluminum billet bars that keep the strips of wood straight while clamping,i put some non-stick plastic sleeves(sliderail packaging,i have a ton of that stuff)on the bars of the clamp,it also tightens the fit between the wood and my frame. So now i'm staring at the clamp,wood inplace,tring to figure out if there are some details i've overlooked.
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On 9/6/2000
mike
wrote in from
(205.188.nnn.nnn)
back to blah's query, what exactly is a verticle laminate. how is it made? what do u need? thanks
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On 9/6/2000 Herbn
wrote in from
(208.192.nnn.nnn)
Well i ordered the carbon rod,I'll probabely cure the board in my friends curing chamber(he does alot of carbon and fiberglass work),now that you mentioned the prepeg thing.I think i'm gonna do the laminating tonight, but first i've gotta get my first real hill rides in with my Randal 2/red Indy bushing combo on my Sector Con.pin. now with Translucent red Aluminators 78a,man this board is loose!,lots of turning tonight.
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On 9/6/2000 Herbn
wrote in from
(208.192.nnn.nnn)
Re: Tony,i'll have to look in to that prepeg thing,what type of temperature would it take?
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On 9/5/2000 tony
wrote in from
(63.226.nnn.nnn)
Sounds like a starved join from lack of resin. Maybe prep?
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On 9/4/2000
evan
wrote in from
(129.127.nnn.nnn)
re: finishing problems.
It sounds like you are squeezing too much resin out of your glass when you press it (uneven pressure).
A solution to this would be to press the wooden laminates in the normal way, then you could try a process called "vaccuum bagging" to apply the glass/fabric.
This involves a vaccuum pump and some special plastic bags and applies an even pressure to all of the surface. It requires a bit of equipment, but I don't think it's too expensive.
I have not used it for any longboards, but I have for surfboards and boat repairs.
try a search on the web for it.
Evan
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On 9/4/2000 Nick
wrote in from
(203.96.nnn.nnn)
I,m having finishing problems with my maple/uni-glass/epoxy/printed fabric horozontal laminates and am hoping someone may have experienced the same and have a solution.
I,ve been making cambered and rockered 6mm maple laminates, then placing a layer of fabric and uni directional glass cloth each side with epoxy, then placing back in my press, covered in wax paper.
When I remove from press the next day, there are valleys running across the board and also white strieksrunning lengthways.
I think the white strieks may be from the cloth not being fully saturated in resin, but I can,t figure out how the valleys got there.
Could these be from the bend in the board relaxing and rippleing the cloth/glass?
Could it be caused by air bubbles between the wax paper and laminate moving together when the pressure goes on?
Would my boards be strong enough if I were to laminate out in the open instead of under pressure?
Any advice or ideas at all would be much appriecated as apart from these markings I,m very happy with the way my boards are turning out.
BTW, I also use a thin layer of surface tissue on top.
thanks...Nick
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On 9/4/2000 nev
wrote in from
(12.72.nnn.nnn)
hugh,the bisquets wrk well,ive found that the shock loading when the board hits a wall,gutter,actually anything solid, shoot down the laminates,leads to failure,also this depends on the woods used.
so a couple of my older boards have been glued back together,then i ran a router passing through some of the stringers,but only 1/2 the depth of the board,then set in a small piece of hardwood,will put up a photo soon
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On 9/4/2000 Blah
wrote in from
(209.245.nnn.nnn)
Okay, my follow up question. Why vertical lamination? Advantages/Disadvantages? And which way do the strips of wood run? Along the length or the width?
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On 9/4/2000 tony
wrote in from
(63.225.nnn.nnn)
Hello,
Prepreg...although perimpregnated with resin and quite rigid, it has not been cured and will cure only in mold with high heat. Until that time, it will not attain structural properties as rated. Also, beware of the source. Prepreg degrades with improper storage. For best results, it should remain in cold storage (freezer) from point of manufacture until purchase and used shortly after. Boeing, out of Seattle was a good source of well cared for materials at a good price. Pre-cured carbon fibre rod or square stock is ready to go. Didn't mean to split hairs, but I would hate to see someone spend great time and money and not get what is wanted.
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On 9/4/2000 Herbn
wrote in from
(216.107.nnn.nnn)
Are biskets,anything like tougue and groove?.
I was looking through a woodworkers magazine at barnes+noble and Sears dropped the price on a 13 inch capacity surface
grinder for wood,to about 400 bucks,MMmmmmm
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