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| Home Made Boards (6188 Posts)
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Home Made Boards |
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On 9/14/2000 waxfoot
wrote in from
(63.10.nnn.nnn)
PS - just realized that I unintentionally let Herbn slip out of the information gathering loop as well. My apologies Herbn. I'm trying to keep up on all your experiences with pre-preg. I'll have to ask a bro of mine about a website that he showed me when I was in CA - a guy who built his own carbon-fiber monocoque frame bike from scratch, and posted the whole thing in a website. Info on techniques, problems, and materials suppliers as I recall. Damn I have too many hobbies. :) Keep us informed....
aloha
waxfoot
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On 9/14/2000
waxfoot
wrote in from
(63.10.nnn.nnn)
Aloha to all you glassers out there....
I'm really glad my glassing post was helpful and informative to everybody. I was a bit concerned about its length, but you all seem to be good with everything that I passed on. Yes, Hugh did email me about a pic/text tutorial and I was about 1/2 way through writing one of my typical large emails in response when I realized that you all might want to hear it as well. I'll try to keep it short (yeah right! you all say).
Tony and I both agree that "Ding Repair Scriptures" (will he ever stop mentioning it? NO!) and "Essential Surfing" are essential reads. I really have read them both cover to cover about a hundred times and have practically memorized them. I have not had the chance to check out the free West Systems manual that Tony mentions, but as they are pretty much *the* supplier of polyester resin on the west coast, I would imagine it's all good stuff. One more suggestion I have on glassing tutorials is J.C.'s (surfboard shaper in HI and CA) "Glassing 101" video. It is, of course, all about glassing surfboards, but the majority of the techniques and steps still apply. I haven't had the chance to view it recently (it's somewhere in my big stack of storage boxes) so can't give you a review on its content until I do.
Some more info on glassing and my general knowlege upon the subject: I am an entirely self-taught glasser who started by repairing my own and friends surfboards, then shaping and glassing my own surfboards after finding out it was much cheaper to do so. I had the good fortune to have aquaintance with 3 local surfboard shapers and glassers who were very helpful in critiqueing all of my various attempts and gave me hints to help me improve the next one. Some shapers and glassers can be very secretive about their own particular methods, not wanting more competition in an already very competitive skills arena. Especially one whose income can have you eating steaks one week and rice and beans the next. Thus I really did appreciate every scrap of help, advice, and patience that I received from those 3, even after mistakes that they let me make on their own production boards - from leash cups that went a tad too deep, to every sander's nightmare - the burn through. My knowledge does have it's limitations however. It is generally limited to standard surfboard technology methods using surfboard grade fiberglass and polyester resins. My epoxy experience is extremely minimal, and I have literally no experience with vacuum bagging and the use of the 'pre-preg' carbon fiber materials, although I would like to learn about both.
And I said this was going to be short. :) Do to my rather busy current school schedule I unfortunately can't guarantee that a glassing tutorial undertaking would be able to happen in the most immediate future, but everybody's kind response to my previous posts, and requests for more have definitely planted the seed firmly in my mind. I am sure Hugh and I will be communicating about the potential of such a project and the best way to approach it.
Mahalo and aloha ka kou
waxfoot
Tony - so MBF still exists!? When I was in Santa Cruz on vacation last month and drove by the old MBF warehouse I noticed a brand new sign that said it was now Fiberglass Hawaii of all things. Same logo and everything as Fiberglass Hawaii over here in the islands. Very strange, I thought. I didn't, however, get a chance to go inside and see if the guys that used to run it when it was MBF were still there. They were always super cool and gave me a lot of help, suggestions, and advice on anything from picking the right surfboard blank, to which glass to use. They also used to have a killer trade in program for used respirators - if your brought in your old used one and bought the 5-pack of 3M replacement cartridges they would give you a brand new 3M respirator for free. You're right on tolerance to all those toxic chemicals. Even with a respirator, some of that toxic stuff can enter your body through your skin. Add wearing gloves to my usual safety shpeel. Old beater clothes are good too - l/s shirt, pants, and shoes to protect yourself. Though I have to admit I've done my share of repairs in rubbah slippahs and surf trunks. Do as I say and not as I do... :) If Hugh and I decide to take on the glassing project I would definitely appreciate and welcome advice and suggestions from you as well.
aloha
waxfoot
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On 9/13/2000 Blah
wrote in from
(209.245.nnn.nnn)
Done w/ my first skateboard project. Flat miniboard, 16"x8 7/8", round nose, square tail, trucks mounted on the ends. Very ugly, but pretty fun to ride. I put US 9 Pivot trucks on it, no risers, old worn S9 70mm/78a.
Learned a bit about making boards w/ this projects, especially the lesson that drilling truck holes is difficult! How do you guys keep them straight?
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On 9/13/2000 Herbn
wrote in from
(208.192.nnn.nnn)
Paul Schmitt of New Deal,Schmitt sticks,P.S.wood,ect got started in St.Petersburg Fla pressing boards under his mom's buick or his VW bus depending on which urban legend you listen to,its definitely not out of the question for flat longboards,maybe even simple mellow curves,properly fitting molds are the major hurdle and its gonna cost more than going to the store and buying a board.Well maybe not if its a flat birch and glass laminate.
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On 9/13/2000 Herbn
wrote in from
(208.192.nnn.nnn)
Yeah! this carbon rod came in from aircraft spruce and the shipping kills me,a "spool" is like 3 feet around with all kinds of packaging so the brown guys don't mangle it, so its oversized shipping charges from cali(where it was in stock)i spent like a minute sawing at the end with a brand new staight edge, very tech stuff,i gotta learn about that cure to maximum strength thing although it does seem cure totally dry,not frozen,no instructions came with it,but it seems to fall into the carbon rod,not prepeg catagory,I think i'm gonna drill and trace the shape of my board(i do pattern trimming now)before grooving the wood for this carbon stuff,that way i can cut the carbon to lengths that stay in the board,that way neither my band saw or router bits will be dulled by hitting carbon.
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On 9/13/2000
Marcus W
wrote in from
(62.20.nnn.nnn)
Hello Longborders
I want to build a longboard between 1m and 120cm
wich plywood is strongest (fabric made)
cause i can´t build thin ply together cause i don´t have
things to press it hard. Maybe if I put it under the wheels
on my car hahaha.
I would be very pleased for answers
the deck can be like 18/22mm thick, A heavy one
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On 9/13/2000 tony
wrote in from
(63.226.nnn.nnn)
waxfoot,
Good points. "Ding Repair Scriptures" "Essential Surfing" and the free manual from West resin systems out of Seattle are must reads. I got all three, plus supplies from Monteray Bay Fiberglass in Bingen Washington. They are really great people to work with as long as you don't mind the extra hazardous materials shipping charge. In spite of the fact that I now live in Minnesota, I still send all my business to them because because they got soul. I agree totally with waxfoot about safety gear "wear your resperators" the best you can afford. I always wore mine, but at age 38 I have still pretty much maxed out my tolerance and must now be very careful in my use of such materials. The mind is a terrible thing to waste on MEK and the like.
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On 9/13/2000
hugh r
wrote in from
(205.216.nnn.nnn)
I too found it very informative and interesting...
(I have e-mailed waxfoot with the offer to post a pic/text tutorial on my site covering this subject. So maybe some gentle encouragement from all of us out here will get him to agree to write it!) HR
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On 9/13/2000
rogerj
wrote in from
(32.100.nnn.nnn)
waxfoot,
Very cool! Reading your post makes me want to go out and start glassing. I very much apprecate the first hand info. An enjoyable read, I think that I am not the only one that would like to read more.
thanks!
rogerj
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On 9/13/2000
waxfoot
wrote in from
(63.10.nnn.nnn)
Blah/Hugh - Tony beat me to it on the resin go-off advice, but I have more to add. He was spot-on on the advice to do a test batch and watch the 'go-off'. Plus, the more you work with fiberglass and resin, the better you become at it. Something I'll mention on his advice though - when he mentions 'wax' floating to the surface of the resin, that is when you are using what is called 'sanding' resin. The wax that floats to the surface assists in the curing of the resin by blocking the air from the chemical reaction in the resin. Once cured, it may be sanded (thus the name 'sanding' resin). If you are using 'laminating' resin when laying up your glass, you will not see this wax rise to the surface (it aint there). Key things to remember in the different types of resin: Laminating resin dries tacky, and is near impossible to sand. It is not meant to be sanded - its function is merely to adhere the glass to the foam (wood in skateboards). Care is taken to make sure that the glass is saturated and there is enough resin to do this, *but no more*. An excess of resin can have the result of 'floating' the glass (just like it sounds) and you end up sanding the glass away and losing the structure (and whole point of glassing in the first place). You will still be able to see the weave of the glass after laminating. Sanding resin is the second coat of resin on the board and is used to fill in the weave that you can still see after laminating. This coat has a wax that floats to the surface which allows the resin to cure to a hardened state, allowing it to be sanded. Don't over sand, as you can easily 'burn through' all your previous work.
You *can* simply use sanding resin to lay up your glass, but beware: as sanding resin has the wax that floats to the surface, it *must be sanded* before another coat of resin is applied, or proper adhesion will not occur. It may appear to occur, but you will notice it peeling off in sheets in time. This use of sanding resin causes a potential problem in laying up your glass. If you add enough resin to hide the weave of glass you again, like I mentioned in the laminating step, are running the risk of floating the glass. And you *will* sand it away. My advice is to not try and skip steps by merely using sanding resin. Spend the extra 5 or 10 minutes and do the proper steps - laminate, hot coat (surfboard-tech name for sanding resin, due to the fact that usually more catalyst is used and it cures hotter), *then* sand. You will end up with a better product in the long run.
I always liked the "Ding Repair Scriptures" suggestions for timing on the various steps. When you've finished your laminating, go have a bowl of cereal. When you come back, you should have a nice stiff laminate. (Hint: - don't muck with your glass to check the hardness - check in your mixing bucket - old butter/yogurt tubs work killer - to see how hard it is. If it's runny - go away for another 5-10 min. If it's nice and stiff - think cheese rather than jell-o - you're good to go) You may now trim your excess glass. It should have an almost 'rubbery' feel to it. Tacky, but *not* wet and sticky. It should cut really nice and easily with a razor blade. (Note: if you notice the glass pulling away/moving like it is still soft, STOP! Go away for another 5 min.. When removing trimmed glass, pull *slowly*, making sure all the fibers are cut, and you are not making a 'run' - yes, like your girlfriend/wife's nylons - by pulling an uncut thread out of the weave of the other threads.) Next step, application of sanding resin. (pre-hint: agitate, but not shake, your sanding resin can before pouring - the wax and resin separate in time and you need a combination of the two for things to work right) Apply in a nice even layer with a decent 2-3" paintbrush. Then go do your laundry (more "D.R.S." timing). Do your brushes a favor and clean them with acetone right when you finish (hot coat, not laundry). Old peanut butter jars are good for this. Just let it soak for a while, then shake it out hard, then use clean acetone and repeat. (Hint: don't shake it out against a wall - your mom/wife probably won't dig the resin spots left on the wall). When you come back from your laundry, you should have a nice hard surface that you can sand. Again, the hint is to check your bucket. If you see that 'waxy' glaze, and it is nice and hard, you are good to go. If it's still wet and tacky, go away again. As you have already trimmed your glass, you can leave it as long as you want to harden up.
More on trimming - you may also trim your excess glass *after* your hot coat. Laminating of glass has gone successfully and excess is 'rubbery'. Hot coat now applied and left to 'go off' in its own right. When it has gone off to a nice, stiff state, you may trim the whole shebang. Important - new, hot, and fresh batches of resin have the effect of softening previous layers if they are not fully cured to hard. Beware - with an incompletely cured laminate, if you add a nice hot batch of sanding resin, you can potentially have that awful 'floating' glass effect again. If you have the time, take the time. In repairing surfboards sometimes I rush the steps because I'm all out of boards and want to get in the water NOW. I've been known to strap a board on the car and head to the beach when the resin is still curing, sandpaper in pocket to give it a once over to take the sharp/rough spots off before my sesh. Sometimes I get away with it, sometimes I screw it up and float the whole thing and have to start over. The old saying goes - haste makes waste.
Hopefully this huge post didn't bum too many people out. My apologies and all credit goes to the "Ding Repair Scriptures" as usual. I've read it cover to cover about a hundred times (serious) and it still helps. It's worth a read every once in a while to refocus and help you figure out why what you just did went wrong. I still, and will continue to recommend it for all you newbie (and not-so-newbie) glassers out there until I find something better. It's small, cheap, you don't need a degree in rocket science to understand it, steps are cross referenced very well, and there's lots of pictures. Ask your local surf shop for it. If you don't have a local surfshop and would still like to get it, I can post the contact info for the publishers (Soquel, CA) or I can even probably mail you a copy if worse comes to worse. No, I'm not paid to endorse these guys (I wish I was) - the book was suggested to me in the past, just as I am suggesting it to you all now.
I've got oodles more info on glassing and techniques up in my noggin that I'm more than happy to pass on if you have questions or are looking for suggestions. This post is big enough as it is however, and I'll spare everyone the gory details. I'll end this post as I do most every time I have glassing advice....
*safety (and health) first - wear that mask!*
aloha ka kou
waxfoot
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On 9/12/2000 Herbn
wrote in from
(216.107.nnn.nnn)
Well, my lamination seems to be holding, sanded it with my new Portacable belt sander,messed up one small section of spruce,next to some maple that needed to be sanded, i'll have to fill that in(with Kevlar) ,i probabely wouldn't use sitka spruce again,it may be pound for pound the stongest wood but it is still pine;perfect, knotfree,straightgrain,expensive,but still pine.I did a dry clamping of my top sheet and used no sitka spruce ,i figure i'll bevel off the bottom on all edges down to the Kevlar laminates in the middle, so the pine,err sitka spruce, won't take any direct hits.just remembered, my graphite stinger material should be on the brown truck soon.I've been considering all kinds of cool things to do,billet inserts sort of like a t nut ,not a capitol t, but a wide section in the middle that's captive between upper and lower sheet.Aluminum nose and tail pieces would be excellent if i could figure out how not to wreck my band saw blade and abusing my router bit,i'd have no trouble making the inserts and putting them securely in the laminate but shaping though ,is a bit of a problem, also, is it worth it?probabely not,its a downhill skateboard not a snowboard.
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On 9/11/2000 todcar
wrote in from
(198.39.nnn.nnn)
the 72" board can be seen at the longboard lounge (with green kryptos)
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On 9/11/2000 todcar
wrote in from
(198.39.nnn.nnn)
hey weird guy,
I've got a 72" homemade board, 12" wide with a wheelbase of 55 inches or so. It is solid 3/4 poplar and with a nose of 5 inches a tail of 11", it flexes but is still pretty strong. I have exkate 101 trucks on it with 73mm gravity wheels and this thing is one mf my sharper turning boards. WEird to have a deck this long and still super responsive. Outturns my 54" supaflex with RIIs and mybe my 48" with RIIs. Not a speed board. I've had it up to 30mph but wouldn't take it beyond that. It sounds like a 1/2 plus 1/2 should be strong enough but make sure to glu them together extra well.
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On 9/11/2000 Herbn
wrote in from
(216.107.nnn.nnn)
Thousand pairs of rails a week,and risers and hardware too.oops
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On 9/11/2000 Herbn
wrote in from
(216.107.nnn.nnn)
I have an industrial size Delta Unisaw 3h.p. 220 volt,i bought it when i was making over a thousnd pairs of rails for World Industries,i was but a small cog in their machinery.I have a shaper,that i used for rounding the strips of uhmw once they were cut and drilled,this could be used to plane the strips but the surfaces of the wood are already well finnished and those are the edges that get glued.
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On 9/11/2000 Ant
wrote in from
(63.195.nnn.nnn)
Update:======Land Raft==========Land Raft======
If anyone cares,
I just got the bamboo sticks. I looped the wires together and mounted the trucks. The diameter of the stick was 1/2 inch. i used approx. 15 to make a 8 inch wide deck. It sucked! I got on it and it cracked. So bamboo is noo good.
Ant
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On 9/11/2000 nick
wrote in from
(203.96.nnn.nnn)
Herbn, what do you use to cut your strips of wood to size/shape for a vert lam?
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On 9/11/2000
WeirdGuy
wrote in from
(209.244.nnn.nnn)
I'm planning on making a 72" board with a 54" or so wheelbase. I'm going to put Invaders on it, but I was wondering about reinforcing the bottom. The board itself is 10" wide, and I'm planning a 3" strip down the middle as the reforcement (same width as the board, 1/2 methinks). Will that be enough, got any suggestions, anything else?
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On 9/11/2000 tony
wrote in from
(63.226.nnn.nnn)
Blah: Re, trimming glass. Don't count on a time schedule, many thing will change when mix kicks off. Humidity, temp, measuring ratios, etc. My advice, stick close by till you get a feel for it. The surface will be shiny and dripping wet when resin is applied. Note how resin stops to drip off outside cloth, then starts to slightly dull as wax moves to surface. Glass will get stiffer. At some point it will cease to be tacky and will stiffen up, but not yet rigid. That is time to trim. Hard to explain, better to demonstrate. Glass and resin is cheap compared to failed project. Mix up a small batch and put on piece of scrap and just get used to the way resin goes off.
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On 9/11/2000 tony
wrote in from
(216.160.nnn.nnn)
Herbn, Re: prepreg. Check the specs that (should) come from the supplier. Take some time to explain what you are doing and they will be able to get you accurate guesses.
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On 9/11/2000 Herbn
wrote in from
(216.107.nnn.nnn)
I tried to resurface, and reglue my laminate ,while we're speaking of endless work:)i'll see how it worked tonight,fingers crossed.
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On 9/11/2000 Herbn
wrote in from
(216.107.nnn.nnn)
Stiffness,and strength not really the same if you had a given core,1/2 inch thick 16lb foam 4 layers of properly saturated 2 oz glass would greatly out perform one layer of 8 oz glass (also perfectly saturated) right? The four layers are alot more work but it's better,the question is do you need it to be that good,is the work worth it,to you.
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On 9/11/2000 Blah
wrote in from
(209.244.nnn.nnn)
waxfoot,
thanks for the info, that helps alot. So how long does it take for the resin to "go off?" The cure time is 6 hours, so should I wait like an hour or 2 before trimming?
Anyways, it was my first experience making a board, and it came out ugly, but I'm okay with it. It's a miniboard that I want to use for campus travel since it will fit in a backpack (not that S9 Cosmic 1 isn't good enough for travel already, but I just wanted to ride a tiny deathtrap).
My next board I want to try making is a 32" single kick, w/ a wheelbase of 16"-20" for park riding.
Oh yeah, and fiberglass splinters are really annoying.
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On 9/11/2000
Steven
wrote in from
(195.121.nnn.nnn)
hee guys,
I'm kinda new to this newsgroup but I couldn't find anything usefull in the archives. I'm trying to get a concave in my 45" homemade longboard. But I don't know how. I'm supposed to soak the board in water for a night, and fit in a mold or something, but I'm affraid it will screw up my multi layer wood (waterbubbles/airbubbles in it) Is there another way to do this?
Thanks
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On 9/11/2000
hugh r
wrote in from
(205.216.nnn.nnn)
Waxfoot, I appericiate the knowledge that you share in your posts... I am fairly new to using fiberglass and am learning as I go too. So thank you.
I try to absorb as much info as I can from the different posts I read, the people I talk to, and good ol' trial and error. Sometimes my projects turn out, sometimes they don't...
So as many tips and stuff you can share, the better! Thanks again, HR
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