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| Region: Europe (5207 Posts)
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Oh Dear
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On 1/10/2002
Don O'Shei
wrote in from
(64.160.nnn.nnn)
Stevie B
Name the european races last year. My count is that there were about 11 events last year in the US and about 16 races as some events had two races.
Chris, Adam, "Happy" Gilmour
Look, contrary to popular opinion I have nothing against the european race scene. I'd bet I've lived in europe and asia longer than any american on this board. But hey, let's be realistic. You can put on a slalom race in the western US and draw 60-100 racers. That interests sponsors. No other region has demonstrated the ability to draw that many entrants over an extended series. Not europe and not the eastern US. It's not personal, it's just reality. I, personally, would love to travel the world racing and someday that may be a reality but not this year. Maybe next. This year we have the FCR Series and the format has been announced and is not subject to fundamental revision. I respect anyone who is putting on their own events and wish them great success. So snipe all you want but in the end if you want to test yourself against the toughest competition the FCR Series is the place to race in 2002. You might wish things to be otherwise but wishing doesn't make it so.
Don O'Shei
FCR/TLP
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oh dear
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On 1/10/2002 Stevie B
wrote in from
(213.122.nnn.nnn)
Adam
re your'If there is interest in Europe' comment I would bet that it was 'factually correct' that there were more slalom races in europe than the USA last year.
If you go back 18 months or 2 years you'll remember that you had to send to europe to get a new slalom board because no one was making them in the usa.
the problem with this board is although it says euopean at the top its really only UK where slalom is 18 months behind america the swiss,french and italians are at least on par with the US John G would confirm this I think from memory & this might be 'factually incorrect' that there where 3 top europeans at morro bay and they all finnished in the top 10 and simon was probably a little rusty.
Chris from lush
Your the man with the Avon Boosters surely they are the wheel for the wet ? use them back to front so you have a good leading edge or even better lathe them down
what are your riding impressions on those.
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UK slalom
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On 1/10/2002
chris
wrote in from
(195.92.nnn.nnn)
though I do rate the Turner 74a La Costa wheels for riding in the damp! Incredible.
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UK slalom
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On 1/10/2002
chris
wrote in from
(195.92.nnn.nnn)
we get WAY too much rain (all year round) for this thing to work like it does in California! Thing is, I reckon inside venues are near impossible to get working.
Don't want to be a pooper, but even a slight amount of dampness can make it supaslidy. We've not been able to skate (longboard) properly here in Sheffield for WEEKS. Granted, it's winter, but it's a bit frustrating.
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oK
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On 1/10/2002
adam trahan
wrote in from
(204.152.nnn.nnn)
Scabs, you usher in a new description of extreme restraint.
[inside joke, you know what I am talking about]
I want to hear what the Europeans have to say. I want to know what they think. I realize that there is a language and cultural difference but if we are to communicate globally about this issue, I don't want to talk with myself. I'm keeping my ears open listening, this keeps my mind open, I could be wrong about this too. Let's keep quiet and see what the Europeans who frequant this board have to say, this is good form.
Jack Smith just contacted me and I told him to get Tony Hawk on board. This person can help with the growth, argue that one, not. Imagine that five years down the road...
Regardless of all this, I am so excited about going to Boston for the 4th of July race, excited for La Costa, exciting times and that left hand kidney at my home skatepark. Yeah!
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Central "Coast"
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On 1/10/2002
psYch0Lloyd
wrote in from
(198.160.nnn.nnn)
Clingfilm: There is a burgeoning Central States "League" of sorts and we are busy preparing to cover every direction. The reason we have been quiet here in Chicago is because we have our hands full designing the equipment, which we hope you will be riding in the near future. The East and West Coasters have an idea of what I'm talking about, Martin and maybe Paul Price too, and certainly a guy named Lexx out there since we just made the connection. Kenny Mollica of Ohio took second in La Costa and is now training hard. The Midwest will be coming around soon, though it may be hard to notice at first. You'll see, some of us just don't put ego into the equation.
Alan Sidlo
Knucklehead Racing Team
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Adam T`s post
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On 1/10/2002
Scabs
wrote in from
(216.78.nnn.nnn)
First, as a NON euorpean, let me say that I, like Adam, am speaking my mind with the sole intent on expanding and promoting the sport of slalom skateboarding. I also no little of the sport in europe and the ISSA but I would like to address Adam`s post for argument sake so the arguement can be made and dealt with and move forward.
Adam,
I respect you for sticking your neck out even if it`s not a popular thing to do. I garner that you try to educate yourself so that you have a well thought message to present.
Basically there are two issues I would like to address at this time...
1) The ISSA
2) The snip from John O`s post
1) I have little knowledge of the ISSA but my impression is that it was basically a euorpean organization. We can pick it apart and that could be easy with things like certain countries having thier expenses paid for and such, but I`m more concerned about another aspect....the governing body itself. It seems that it was made up of parties from each country. That is kind of lopsided against the US since all of europe is about the same size as all of the US. Equal representation was naught for the US. Maybe if if Europe was put together as a group like the United States of Europe, that might equal the table to the USofA. That`s all I have on that right now so lets move on to #2)
2)
In John O`s post (or snipped section) it was basically stated that if you wanted to be a part of the Worlds Comp, you`ll have to put some events together and prove yourself worthy. My problem with this is the eastern US has already proven that with this past years events and they weren`t included in "thier" series. It all boils down to what is defined as a qualifying race and since there currently is no governing body that speaks for us all (and the ISSA didn`t do that), then for now, we should, or they should, rethink the qualifying and take a hard look at the already proven show up and set a fast time to be seeded into the finals.
All this coming from a kook, who`da figger?
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factually incorrect statement.
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On 1/10/2002 John Gilmour
wrote in from
(151.203.nnn.nnn)
oops Maurus Stroble eliminated Simon Levene- Just want to make sure this isn't "factually incorrect"
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Adam
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On 1/10/2002 Clingfilm
wrote in from
(194.154.nnn.nnn)
Your attitude is right, however the how is the problem. Time will tell on that. I guess the best system will win, but which one. California has too be the favourite, the home of skateboarding, perfect weather, and roads to dream of.
How can it all be co-ordinated with no funds. It can only be first come first served here. Very difficult at present, but we shall see.
Don't with draw from this site. i like your input.
Chris
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fin
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On 1/10/2002
adam trahan
wrote in from
(204.152.nnn.nnn)
To the Europeans who visit this board, please forgive me for voicing my American opinion here. I am only standng up for what I believe in as an American, a citizen of the globe. I too have used my slalom board to go get some cigarettes at the corner store, and I also dream of seeing slalom skateboarding in the Olympics. I promise that I will refrain from posting here any more so that we will be able to see if there is any European "life" in this discussion.
Cheers!
--------------- -----
Again, I hope that [snipping for brevity] does not change the person who made the post's original intent. I strive to not change the feeling of your post, and want the original intent to be retained when I make the snip. I don't like doing this, but in this case, it may help in stating my opinion.
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Don has a point with what I have snipped below. If there is interest in Europe, then Europe will have the races. Both sides have shown at a point in time that there is a lot of interest in racing slalom skateboards. Let's not forget our past, we should learn from both mistakes and progress.
My whole point: If you are going to declare a "World Champion or Worlds or a World Championship series" it would be in the better interest of the world to include the world. Hold a "Worlds" but not a World Series run in the geographic Western United States. Let this great set of races be a foundation to build upon.
In order to function as suggested, a set of governing rules must be adhered to. The ISSA has already made the rules. It worked then and it could work even better now. Having the USA respect this organization and it's rules will send a BIG message to Europe and the world in many ways AND the series will be able to function in its current form too. This can be done with very little change in your promotion.
How many of you want to see slalom skateboarding in the Olympics in your lifetime?
Didn't the ISSA meet with the Olympic comittee in the past? Let's build upon this. You can run your races wether you want to see slalom skateboarding in the Olympics or not, keep your options for growth open in this direction too.
I can't understand, from a spectator point of view, why this organization is pronounced dead by more than one promoter. Even if not one single European or slalom enthusiast anywhere around the globe survived the 90's, the ISSA and it's reputation is a standard that is recognized and will continue to be recognized and referenced in regards to this activity.
Why not revive the ISSA over here in the USA?
Why not promote racing and the sport building upon a great foundation?
Why not?
Because it is dead and it needs to be burried?
This is the very reason you should give it life, because you can.
You realize that this web site has a lot to do with the re-birth and promote your series through this web site. The words and actions that you present here are definately communicating your intentions globally, er, wait a second. I'm starting to get it. I totally forgot where I was at. The Northern California Skateboarding Association European forum.
Best Regards,
adam trahan
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On 1/8/2002 Don O'Shei wrote in from 64.168.xxx.xxx:
[Snipped for brevity]
Lets not forget that for many, many years the Europeans ran the ski World Cup and World Championships entirely in Europe and the vast majority of the races are still in Europe. If you were an American you had to travel to race. When the US demonstrated that there was sufficient interest to make a US race viable then there were US races. Thats the way it goes. When Europe demonstrates that there is sufficient interest to support the expense and time commitment of a Pro race then there will be one. [Snipped for brevity]
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BADASS
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On 1/10/2002
chris @ lush
wrote in from
(195.92.nnn.nnn)
that sounded harsher than it was meant to! and I add simon g to the below list :)
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BADASS
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On 1/10/2002
chris @ lush
wrote in from
(195.92.nnn.nnn)
yeah, what's the latest with BADASS, darren, jon? the website is never up to date, and what was/is it's purpose?
it's at http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/badass1/ for you folk who aint seen nuttin yet.
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BADASS
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On 1/10/2002 Clingfilm
wrote in from
(194.154.nnn.nnn)
On the subject that there was already an organisation (BADASS) for us, I am aware of this. It was a shame that they could not turn up to help us, although I look to align ourselve later. If I stood and waited I would be waiting until next year. Get involved. I don't care what it is called, although I dislike BADASS as a public name, more as a skaters organisation rather than competition organisers.
What would Crystal Palace Parl authorities think of letting BADASS have use of their tracks for a weekend.
Point made
Chris
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Trans atlantic series
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On 1/10/2002 Clingfilm
wrote in from
(194.154.nnn.nnn)
Maybe a world series may be inpractical but we could at least do an across the pond one.
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M'boys
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On 1/10/2002 SSofS
wrote in from
(217.204.nnn.nnn)
Scabs
Y'boys are gonna get their asses kicked!
(In the car park afterwards:-))
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East vs West
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On 1/10/2002
Scabs
wrote in from
(66.21.nnn.nnn)
Chris,
I just had an idea! hows about a comp of east vs west. Top ten from east of the alantic ocean vs top ten from west of alantic ocean. I know I won`t be competing but I`d put down some quid on m`boyz...Hehaaaa!!!!!!!
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Scabs
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On 1/10/2002
Clingfilm
wrote in from
(194.154.nnn.nnn)
Scabs
absolutly agree. This is what I hope will happen. You are right about the sectioning but this will always be a problem. Why is there no central States league, Asian etc.
Whatever happens it will grow. It is important that we do not need to re-think everything every year.
Individual qualifying I feel is the best way.
Chris
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RE: Chris` comments
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On 1/10/2002
Scabs
wrote in from
(66.21.nnn.nnn)
Chris,
Some food fot thought...
What qualifies a race as a qualifying race?
As for 10 from west, east, euro, etc....isn`t euro like just a bunch of states? Euro dollar=Unites States of Europe?
With no governing body like the ISSA or UKSSA or USSSF at this time to decide what is or isn`t, it would probably be best to have a timed elimination. Fastest skaters compete, period. You have, 100, 200, heck 300, all put down a time and the top 48 times move to head to head. I think a 3 day event should cover this easily. Same goes for amatuer class,
can be held on a differant hill for that matter.
Just a thought or two ;-)
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Gilmores comments
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On 1/10/2002
Clingfilm
wrote in from
(194.154.nnn.nnn)
I approve of your comments John, as we have discussed before.
Here I hope to have three day events, and I note your comments on fatigue, but I feel it is up to the skater not to do too much to "save" themselves for the main comp. However the fact that we may need to "kill" ourselves through loads of qualifiers is a problem.
I hope to have practice on Friday. Saturday for qualifying, timing all entrants for rankings. Sunday is the main event. This way all skaters get a good skate.
I have been thinking about how to handle large numbers of skaters. On Saturday they will be split into groups and given a time to qualify on the courses. Here we hope to have three events in a day. The groups can be rotated around the courses. I hope not to have a set number of timed runs but a time allocation to skate to record their time. This will mean that the top skaters can qualify quickly and maintain their fitness. Slower ones will have to fight for their place (quite rightly). This I call a Jam session.
I would suggest that to qualify for the world championship you must place in the top 10 over a series of say three events, which is regionally based. I don't think a standard course is a good idea because it depends on gradient, surface etc which will vary from State to State.
or have the top 10 east coast, 10 west coast, and 10 Europeans plus two guests. Leave it to the regions to organise their top 10.
Any way good thoughts and issues. There can be no perfect solution but I do not like "free entry" to skaters who may not be good, just because they are known. I also do not like the fact that we over here knock each othher out
In the US are all events races, as John sayes it is unlikely to get the top four as the top four, but this is a test of consistency over the event, and all elemination events suffer from this. The Super bowl, forgive I know nothing really of this, has the best solution where the top teams from two leagues compete. But what if the best two teams were in the same league?
We have single course timed events also, like GS etc. In the competion this is easy to manage due to the fact that evvryone either has a timelimit to take as many runs as they like, or they have 2 or 3 runs which count. The skaters can be placed in groups and rotated.
Chris
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JG's post
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On 1/10/2002 Stevie B
wrote in from
(213.122.nnn.nnn)
Why not go with a 'reputations out the window' olympic style east coast/west coast/euro pre qualifier each location sending an 8 man team to the 'world championships'
or a 2 runs against the clock ski type final
your post is quite depressing from a euro point of veiw and I supose east cost as well the chances of getting anywhere after spending alot of money are slim regardless of talent and doesn't even take into consideration who sets the course etc which is never straight forward
I can see it going the way boxing is with 3 governing bodies and 3 'world championships' but hope not, after all its a speed event and the fastest man should be the winner.
steve
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heavy shit
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On 1/10/2002
martin pavey
wrote in from
(203.57.nnn.nnn)
it,s about 30 centergrade here great weather for skating .and we have a 3 meter swell at the moment.just thought i would make you poms a little bit jealous.But i have no boddy to slalom with .o well have to go for a surf .martin from west oz
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The Western Conference Championships or the Wold Champoionships?
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On 1/9/2002
John Gilmour
wrote in from
(151.203.nnn.nnn)
*************Important read thoroughly*********************
Everyone should take the time to read this in its entirety at least twice. It is a long post but I feel a very very important one.
It would appear that somethings stated in a previous post is are "Factually Incorrect".
Last years Morro Bay race was an "Open" and that is why we had some European talent in there. Points prequalifiers would have made it harder for them to get in. Saying that qualifiying as an European for this years race would similar to last years "World Championships" would be "factually incorrect".
To expect any European racer- or East Coaster to be able to attend enough races of the TLP series to make enough points to get into the top 16 will likely prove to be "Factually Incorrect".
Someone who places around 11th place in all the races will have more points than someone who attends half the races and gets 3rd or 4th every time. Don't get picky on me about the points. The issue is valid. It is not "factually incorrect"
To quote:
There will be only 48 slots available to compete for the World Pro Champion Title. The top Series racers will be seeded 1-16 based on their finish in the season points standings. These racers will also receive a first round Bye. In addition, There will be a 32-racer elimination round. 16 of these 32 spots will be available for those racers who finish 17-32 in the Series standings. 10 spots will be At-Large Bids selected by the organizers (TLP), at their sole discretion, and 6 spots will be available to the top 6 finishers in a qualifying race conducted on Friday of the race weekend. These racers will be seeded in a 2 run qualifying round and will race a dual elimination race. The 16 surviving racers will then face the 1-16 seeded racers in a normal 32 man dual elimination.
End Quote.
The operative word in that above paragraph is "surviving".
So I am to take it then that a person who is not in the top 32 in points (doubtful if that will include any Europeans who are likely to attend 1 or two races) and who is not well known will need to get into one of the 6 spots. Let's look closely at a racer who will try to live by these rules and demonstrate his very high slalom talent to the world.
He gets up on Friday- hopefully not jet lagged. He registers and practices the race course. There will be so many competitors that he probably won't be able to get in more than 1-4 practice runs (About what I got at Morro Bay), but he has to be at "Peak Performance to win" so he takes about 10 warm up "runs" nearby. He races 2 runs and wins. Friday (provided the weather is good)
12 runs.
Then he races the next day- perhaps a bit sore from the day before. Now he faces the top 17-32 racers (in this lot are most likely some people that could not attend all the races last year- Paul Dunn (works a lot), Chris Chaput (attends Luge and Stand up races has scheduling conflicts), Steve Olson (did not make all the races last year), perhaps myself (expensive for me to fly). The top 6 will most likely be put in the bottom bracket and will have to run against some pretty good competition (Dunn got 3rd last year, I got 4th, Chaput did well, Olson got 1st at La Costa). So either some Euros, or unknown American or Dunn, Olson, Chaput, Myself are eliminated. That is again a warm up for a race. 10 runs for "peak performance" plus your race runs. If it rains on Friday (hopefully not) everything has to be done on Saturday.
12 more runs = 24 runs. (possibly all in one day.) I'd be sore by now if I was going for one of the 6 spots.
Now the top 16 people (6 of whom have raced two races already -yes , I know a knockout means its a "qualifier" but
it would be same amount of runs if you were doing a single track race) and they are likely to be tired. Some will be sore for the following day.
The next day, Sunday comes. The top 16 races...all of which would have gotten a lot of points from attending many of the races and in a great likelyhood will be geographically close to the TLP race series ie Residents of California are fresh on their home turf ready to race. It is also likely that some of the racers that would have placed in the top 32 had this been a big single track race, would have been eliminated already in the earlier rounds..... in fact by pitting them against themselves European defeating European.... Unlikely????.... well last year Simon Levene (UK)eliminated Dieter (France)and Maurus Stroble (Swiss) eliminated Dieter. Simon Leven came to the USA and didn't get to race an American. Sometimes it happens that way.
I would expect the following people to be in the category that could not attend the vast majority of TLP races. Gianmarco Luca (Italy), GianLuca Ferrero (Italy), Simon Levene (UK), Daniel Ridoli (Swiss), Dieter Fleischer (France), Chris Chaput (USA), Maurus Stroble (Swiss), Chris Hart (Swiss), Andreas Pflander (Swiss), Anatoly Matsukevich (Russia), Max Bimler (Germany), Jani Soderhall (Sweden), Paulo Gatti (Italy), Joseph Stevka (Czech Republic), Gints Zommers (Latvia) Santi Diaz (Swiss) Andres Sidler (Swiss), Jose Dematos (France).
I listed 18 racers there... not even including myself or Olson or Dunn. that would be 21 racers. I've left out a lot more. I have only beaten a few of them in competition before and that wasn't often.
It is likely that you will give some of the 10 selected spots to "legend Wildcards" like Hutson, Skoldberg, Hester, Chris Yandall, etc. If Andy MacDonald, Bob Burnquist (both were at La Costa) or Danny Way (the first contest he ever won was a slalom contest) or Tony Hawk came they would be liklely to be selected.
Right there a large section of competitive "non west coast" pool has been excluded from pro class.
But that is good for the top 16, very good in fact. A 32 man bracket is very likely to have some upsets. I doubt if after the cut to the last 32 that more than 3 Europeans would remain (as very few would have gotten in and some would be likely to race against each other). Since you need 10 perfect runs to win- statistically the odds are better with 29 California racers Vs 3 European remaining racers. Let's say 60% of the top racers mess up. Similar to La Costa's deep bracket this 32 man bracket will require 10 perfect runs in a row to win. I would say not many people could do 10 perfect runs in a row. At La Costa we saw many racers with prior good race records not make it to the final- a deep bracket makes all of the top 4 racers getting to the final statistically unlikely.
The deeper the bracket (64 man, 128 man) the less the likelyhood all 4 of the top racers making it. I'm not a math major. But I do grasp this point.
I doubt you would find that "factually incorrect". In fact under the proposed elimination system I think many would not bother to even compete in the pro class-
Or attend the world championships- or bother to get in shape for slalom given these odds.
The overflow would get dumped in the "amatuer class" and they would have no way to compete against the pros as they are in different classes. That works out nice doesn't it?
So how many people would like to race two races, take about 24 hot runs, and then have to race the top 16 Californians- who are fresh and rested on their home turf? (There is likely to have been some advantage to practicing at La Costa before the La Costa Race- Brad Edwards rode the hill a lot before the race, Michael Breem did as well, Steve Olson also was likely to have practiced there before.)
It all sounds the qualifiying and bracketing sounds "factually incorrect" to me.
Make this fair. One way would be to have an open qualifier on several identical courses. Take the fastest time of one run on each. It should not take much time to process the racers- put snow fencing in between the courses to keep cones from flying into the other courses if you like . I believe the racers would seed very differently and closer to their actual skills and ability levels.
As it stands now you'll have to have 64 runs in 1st dual elimination tier and at least 2 runs for every racer in the first race. So basically that is (2) runs for every racer for racers from 17 and down with (12) additional runs for the 6 people that go on to race again.
In the multiple race course qualifier you could process the additional racers faster on multiple identical courses with independent timing that does not require head to head racing. Both courses would not have to be reset at the same time. If you were to do the same for the 17-32 group you would cut out the need for the 6 racers to have to do an extra race- seems more fair to me.
Still it is the most fair if everyone has to do the same thing.
On a brighter note I am happy to say that I spoke with jack Smith and he was considering taking the results of the Boston July 4th race into consideration for the world championships. Realistically though-
Even if 2 East Coast races are counted they might not be given the same weight. Still it is 2 East contests vs 7 West. If only the top two contest results went towards points it would be a little more fair, but of the California contests The larger contests would likely be attended by the Euros as the locations are easy to get to ie GGP and La Costa. With so many entrants it is likely that unless the person is a podium racer they will not garner many points.
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Just ride
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On 1/9/2002
Jonesy
wrote in from
(136.8.nnn.nnn)
Hey people. I can see there is a lot going on about world champs and the like.
Erm, im just up for a skate. I like the idea behind the world champs and taking part
in different countries. But, I think it would be bad if it gets too competitive,
could possibly take away the enjoyment. Always keep the reason for skating true, remember where
you first rode, your first feelings.
Im just here to see if I can hook up with anyone in the Essex area of the UK, just to ride some hills
and enjoy whats there. I know the peak district is a good place to ride. Anyone up for some travel there.
Jonesy
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slalom suprise surprise
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On 1/9/2002 Devils advocate
wrote in from
(213.122.nnn.nnn)
Did we not already have a slalom assocation
B A D A S S
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Torquay/Paignton
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On 1/9/2002
Paul
wrote in from
(195.92.nnn.nnn)
Hi anyone interested in getting together to skate locally in torquay/Paignton? any type of longboard style - slalom , hills , carving beginner , pro. be nice to see someone else riding big sticks. I have a sector 9 "the 9" & a gravity 47" hypercarve. if you,re thinkin of buyin a board and are undecided u are welcom to try out one of mine if u r serious about the sport. catch u later.........paul
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