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| Long Distance Pumping (LDP) (1492 Posts)
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Friday fopah!!
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On 6/12/2006
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(193.113.nnn.nnn)
Hey Glenn,
I cant beleive we've not spoken about this on a friday, i've always got my skumping setup with me, but the last few weeks nobody has been interested, i know you got down late last week, but if i'd known you were going for a ride along the front i would have hung around, next week mabie, if your comin??
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'Alternative' pumping setup
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On 6/12/2006
G7enn
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(80.229.nnn.nnn)
For the last year or so i've been really sold on Slalom boards for pumping, i'm not a real serious long distance pumper but i've been doing it (on and off) since the late '70s.
A couple of years ago I was really into my 38" Fibreflex pintail with a slightly wedged Seismic on the front and a sixtrack on the back and 75a Flashbacks.
More recently I felt I could beat it with a 32" Pocket Pistols foam cored Brown Bomber, RTX/RTS trucks and white Avalons.
A few months ago I fitted this deck with front and rear Splitfires, Lime/Lemon Zigzags and it worked even better for pumping. On finally checking this forum I could see it made sense. Loose trucks, lots of riser, it was basically a small pumping setup.
The problem is, I was less into the front Splitfire as a Slalom truck so last week I put an RTX back on the front of the slalom board and it performed much better through the cones.
More interestingly, I was looking at my pile of spare bits wondering what to do with the spare Splitfire. Because I liked the way the Splitfire worked on the back of the slalom board I stuck it on the back of my pintail with no risers, on the front I fitted an ancient stage 1 Indy 131 along with a steep wedge (half of an old tracker cell block cut diagonally, so the front of the baseplate touches the deck while the rear is raised by almost 1/2").
This board is low and loose. It has a white Khiro barrel and a white insert 'bottom' on the front, a Blue and a white barrel on the back. It also has my old white Avalons. The front wheels are a good 1/2" wider apart than the back (even though it's using as many Splitfire spacers as I could fit).
It probably runs at least an inch lower than the pumping setups i've seen here and riding with my foot over either truck is simply not an option. The board is just too narrow at those points with the top of the wheels running barely an inch below the deck. Basically it looked interesting but I didn't hold out a lot of hope that it'd be much of a pumper.
After the friday slalom session my kids and I went for a two mile cruise on the flat beach front path and I have to say that this thing is amazing. It took a while to find the best action but when I settled on standing almost completely sideways with my feet several inches in from the truck bolts on each end, then using a motion that was basically like running on the spot, I found this to be the best pumping setup i've ever used, it accelerated like nothing i've ever riden. I raced my son (who is much quicker than me through cones and much fitter than me) on his Slalom board and beat him easily. Sure, it was only a mile or so but I felt I could have riden four or five no problem. I now need to find a path round a lake or something so I don't have to drive nearly 40 miles to practice.
How does it feel different to other setups i've liked?
Back when I was using the Seismic/Tracker combo I was into the way that the springs returned almost all of the pump, on this setup it doesn't even feel like board lean is even a factor, i'm just rotating it relative to the line of travel. Sure, it obviously is leaning but it feels like that is a byproduct of the motion rather than the mechanism creating the motion. Clearly it's a bit of both but for me, pumping is a lot about perspective.
This setup is low, too flexible for me (I weigh around 250) with the wheelbase maximised (when I redrilled for oldschool trucks I put the new holes beyond the furthest standard ones to maximise the effectiveness of the cutouts). The ancient wedged Indy on the front has a lot of 'rake', old Indys mount the axles slightly further out than the more recent versions and the steep wedge maximises this. It's almost as far away as it's possible to get from Carver style geometry on the front. The board sags completely when I just stand on it, forget Camber the thing is a Rocker before I even start pumping, I guess this increases the turning on the already steep trucks even further. The thing actually bottomed out on the 3" tall bumps placed in the busiest part of the path.
Maybe it's just the change from what I had been pumping (front foot right over a Splitfire with lots of riser on my Slalom board) that is so striking.
Anyway, sorry for the long post. Just wondering if any of you serious distance pumpers had had success with seemingly counterintuative setups.
Glenn.
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short cx pumper
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On 6/10/2006
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
Hey Kel, the only thing is both those decks are a bit narrow for the width of CX hangar, so your wheels are stickin' out. I've used CX on a Pig kicktailed board 32" long and 9.5" wide, mounted the rear truck on the kicktail like they do with the AXE (to get a longer wheelbase) --was a fun little pumper. Also had a stiff 36" x 9.25" wide Flexdex mounted with CXs for a while. Flex isn't quite as important with a deck that short (with CX's, anyway...)
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Shorter Board (32-36") for pumping
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On 6/10/2006 Kel
wrote in from
United States
(205.179.nnn.nnn)
Any thoughts on a shorter board for short to middle distance pumping? I live in NYC and want to get a shorter board for portability issues. I have a 38" Loaded that I tried some CX's on and it pumps much easier than with the RII's but I 'd like to get a smaller board that might be a bit easier to carry around and pack away. I was thinking about an Insect cutaway (34") or city bomber (32"). Any experiences with CX's
(6.5") on shorter boards?
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pump this pump that..........
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On 6/10/2006
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.142.nnn.nnn)
Heys guys and gals,
been meaning to post as you have been getting real deep into the pump styles, i'll add my thoughts soon if i get a minute, i love this forum.
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longboardin heaven
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On 6/9/2006
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
right on preach it brotha!! ;-) sounds like a great move tarin. would be great to see some pics from your journeys over there and what you're riding these days. i've noticed other countries i've lived or visited like japan and china, drivers are far more respectful or at least aware of peds and other-wheeled commuters, I hope that by longboard commuting every day it at least creates awareness here in the auto-centric U.S... its a long road ahead.
thanks for posting that C7 a while back, I've only snapped the spring coils but wow you must be putting some torque on that thing?!
and Andrea welcome, whether youre Canadian or Thai no matter, lets just make sure we get some northwest sessions going!!
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copenhagen
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On 6/9/2006
tarin
wrote in from
Denmark
(82.143.nnn.nnn)
i've just moved to copenhagen, and pumping here is incredible. the city is almost completely flat, and the bike paths are wide, elevated slightly from the roads, and usually paved so smoothly you can hardly hear your wheels. and motorists are so used to dealing with hordes of cyclists that a skater in the road doesnt automatically freak them out. i havent been on a bus once, and im not going to get a bicycle. i take my board absolutely everywhere else and havent left the house once without it. long live longboards.
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randal casts
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On 6/9/2006
tarin
wrote in from
Denmark
(82.143.nnn.nnn)
hey munchh,
bummer about your bunk randal casts. ive actually had problems (nothing major) with randal casts online too.. caveat emptor surely applies for the middle-man seller as well as the end-buyer.
i havent seen the urban blues, no, but i dont often go into shops. living in the highlands i just made do with the set-up i had, which was nice, but far from ideal for pumping, as was the terrain. however, things are definitely different now that im in copenhagen. i'll expand on this in my next post actually.
do you still have the .pdf randal-like trucks review? if you do, i'd like to see it please.
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Um...Thailand?
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On 6/9/2006 Andrea
wrote in from
Thailand
(216.13.nnn.nnn)
How puzzling...I'm not sure why I am listed as hailing from Thailand, but I'll figure it out (not that I would argue with being relocated!). I am from Canada...sorry to disappoint!
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Intro
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On 6/9/2006
Andrea
wrote in from
Thailand
(216.13.nnn.nnn)
I’ve been lurking here for a while, soaking up the fine info and the inspiration, so I thought I would say hello. Erin kindly set up my Big Bug into a pumping machine, and I have been making it out for the occasional cray fun ride with her around the Vancouver seawall.
This week I gleefully discovered that I can fit a quick pump into my commute. My carpool drives 30 km south from Vancouver, and I can jump out finish off the journey on my board. The route is smooth, prairie-flat asphalt for a quick 5 km each way before and after work, swerving to avoid the occasional stray rooster or tractor. Awesome riding, and the two lane road is empty but for one or two passing vehicles and the odd cyclist. Weather and workload permitting, I hope to fit a ride in as often as possible.
Thanks for all the posts on technique that have helped speed up the learning curve for a beginning LDPer!
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time well spent
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On 6/8/2006 Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Well done Derek!
I especially enjoy the bushing tower!
I'm glad to see someone is taking this skate jabber seriously!
Btw, I also had some good experiences a while back pumping my Landy DH, with R2's and gummies....well that is until I developed some sort of muscle pull in my quad....but hey, it was fun pumping past my buddy and his Landy Evo, Jim Z's and flywheels.
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more pics
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On 6/8/2006 derek
wrote in from
United States
(24.16.nnn.nnn)
and here's the corrected speedvents pic
and here's a really cool tower that i made from my carver bushings. (time well spent, no doubt.)
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community board
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On 6/8/2006 derek
wrote in from
United States
(24.16.nnn.nnn)
okay- here's a pic of a board that i KNOW is set up right :)
this board is made up of parts from all over the place. i used james' landyachtz dh deck, erin's holey front truck, and my 97mm flywheels. i'm experimenting with some different setups for the mile, and this one is pretty interesting. it's certainly a heavy board, although i'm not sure that's such a bad thing. pumping this setup zapped my energy pretty quickly, but it also reached some quick flatland pump speeds without feeling maxed out.
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Cardio Pumping
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On 6/8/2006
G-X
wrote in from
United States
(65.127.nnn.nnn)
I wore the pulse monitor I use for road cycling to practice slalom one day. I set a 50 cone course on a nearly flat pitch of really nice new asphalt. there was a straight section in to build some speed, then wider and irregularly spaced stuff for the rest. I'd be at resting of about 60, do the course, and i'd be at 150 at the other end. It was at the hight of cycling season when I'd be doing 120 miles a week, and I had decent baseline cardio fitness, but yeah, full on "TTB" pumping is a lot of work...
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sprint & endurance
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On 6/8/2006
peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
On the topic of long distance vs. short distance pump, the longest GS course I've run was about 1 minute 30 seconds average (Hood River) and the biggest long distance pump course I skated was 3 hours 20 minutes (Haul Ash), of almost continuous pumping. To keep distances up, I need to vacillate between the power of long, smooth, powerful interconnected slalom pumps (but more like a SuperGS, considering the wheelbase and length of stride) and then 80%-effort maintenance pumps, which minimize body movement.
For me at least, pumps using the whole body have to be carefully interspersed when acceleration is needed, on long trail rides. I can usually keep those going for a few minutes at a time, then fall back into a less demanding pump, and back again. In fact just overhearing Richy at Hood when he was talking with Lynn Kramer about centering and powering from the back and using the front only to turn, had a lot of influence on how I now shift my "front wiggle" power toward the rear of the deck -- which is still a great technique for maintaining existing momentum, and requires a lot less energy investment than the compress/uncompressing pumps.
Have definately noted the speed skaters (inline) techniques over the last few years of longboarding the Seattle distance events - those guys always take the head of the pack, and the fastest clock 26 miles in under 90 minutes!
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airborne babes
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On 6/8/2006
peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
Actually I gotta credit Michael Dong with that description, in one of our practices he was talking about powering - both throwing the arms behind and downward on the compression, then 'throwing the baby' on the decompress ;-) Amazing to see it in action.
**note: no babies were harmed in the creation or execution of this technique
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Haha.
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On 6/8/2006
Geezer-X
wrote in from
United States
(65.127.nnn.nnn)
"Throwing the baby".... What a perfect description.
I'll tell Richy that the next time I see him. One of our local DC guys does that too. Both arms up on the toeside turns. It's fast for sure.
I've seen all the fast guys at races the past few years, and while Mollica and Mitchell are just stupid, blazing fast, I don't think anyone exhibits such pure physical power as Richy Carrasco.
Watching that video, if you know what you're looking for, is a master class in how to read a course, where to power it up, and where to cruise.
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Pumping...
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On 6/8/2006
Geezer-X
wrote in from
United States
(65.127.nnn.nnn)
Ever ice skated? rollerbladed? Rollerskated? tacked a sailboat to windward?
That's what pumping is, in effect. you're vectoring a thrust load against a sliding (rolling) thing. A wedge as it were. and you're alternating directions since unlike wind, you can only produce it in a given direction for so long.
When you're travelling down the bike path ahve you ever been passed by a talented 5 wheel inline skater with good form? each stroke (pump) is like 20 feet long. They're going 20 on the flats.
Using the legs, compressing and extending, and combined with the arms, which are adding to weight transfer makes real power. It's best harnessed by a deck with some flex, but not too much.
I suggest low camber, maybe 3/8-3/4", and which is flexed to not quite flat when you're in stance.
The point of maximum flex is right as you SNAP the board through the turn from toeside to heelside. there's no wiggle. It's a smooth, coordinated, graceful motion.
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geezers richy link
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On 6/8/2006
peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
thanks for the Richy vid! I just have one very short clip of him ripping down Hood GS last year -- on his max pumps he's got this "throwing the baby" arm movement where both hands go UP, as he's completely reached the unweighting point. its an incredible burst of power, and fun to play with on the flats -- though I can only do those for a little while, then I'm cooked!!
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bask askwerds
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On 6/8/2006 peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
lol! i'm so used to hearing that question about CX's that it didn't even occur to look over dereks pic more closely. there's a couple other *correctly* mounted CX's even farther down on this same page! nice one D ;-)
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bass ackwards
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On 6/8/2006 derek
wrote in from
United States
(24.16.nnn.nnn)
AW FOOEY!
i'm such a freakin' idiot!
it IS backwards. and i can't even use the excuse that it's a mirror image...
i mounted it, took pics, rode it, and realized it was wrong. then i remounted it, and took more pics, then posted the wrong pic. Doh!
Obviously, i've got a thing or two to learn about efficiency of motion, both on and off the board. :)
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backward truck
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On 6/8/2006 hc
wrote in from
United States
(168.149.nnn.nnn)
i think its backward, no?
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Richy Carrasco...
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On 6/8/2006
Geezer-X
wrote in from
United States
(65.127.nnn.nnn)
Has a MONSTER pump.
http://www.sk8kings.com/new/video/RichyCarrascoSlalomRacing.htm
To answer some questions, regarding "swing" vs. "twist", in slalom the prevailing pump form (which granted, combines a racing line around cones with generating power OR braking)uses the entire body and board setup. Watch Richy in action and it'll be immediately apparent.
The "twist" essentially is pushing the nose one way and tail the other. With a lot of steering in both ends, it generates power.
At a slalom event that used to be held in MD, The Gathering, the last day used to end with the uphill pump race. There was a loop road, maybe a 1/3 of a mile around. We'd start at the high point, bomb the downhill, and as speed tapered off, would start pumping to build as much speed as possible on the flat. The road would gradually transition from flat to up hill, and the big, arm-y, swinging power pump style would devolve to the "anything that can make me go" style. It's really hard to configure a setup that can generate useful boost both at 25 mph and at 2 mph.
It turned out that a tiny, flat 70's deck with about a 16" wheelbase and a ton of front steer usually worked where it mattered, which was ekeing out another agonizing 10' at the end when everyone was *really* struggling.
I've done some flatland pumping for fun on a local bike path, and I usually ride an insect deck that's about 34" with the trucks all the way at the ends. I use a PVD rear and an RTX or Indy front. It's my regular GS racing setup with more steering. I use the biggest wheels I can get under it on my best bearings. Usually Oust 7s.
I do a ton of 8mm axle conversions on trucks for slalom racers who are looking for grip, but serious pumpers would benefit from the reduced drag the better alignment provides. Reducing rolling resistance is huge while flatland pumping.
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Push vs Pull
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On 6/8/2006 Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
In my recent experiments with my new pavedwave deck I am observing that a lot of my pump technique has centred around creating linked turns that cause the wheels to pull the board forward. It would seem that the board is being wiggled at various speeds by the legs to create this wheel pulling effect.
On re-reading Dan Gesmer's description of pumping I realized that in talking about weighting and unweighting and referring to the circular motion of the abdomen driving the pump rather than the power of the legs he was explaining how this created a centrifugal force that resulted in the board being pushed (rather than pulled).
I tried this method more pointedly than I had before and found that though it seemed to be working for me it didn't feel as intuitive as powering the turns with my legs. Perhaps it is inexperience or a lack of required strength but the variety of deck manipulations that led to the board moving forward seem easier to me than the weighting/unweighting method that Dan uses.
On an incline I prefer the quick deck wiggle that James refers to and Geezer also mentions in order to generate speed and go up hill. I definitely use my legs and feet to power this movement. For longer sustained higher speed flats I prefer mixing the circular motion with a figure 8 type motion that Derek talked about in his post below. But again these movements often seem to be generated more from the legs and not so much from the abdomen.
As for arm movements it seems that there is a variety of motions that can assist the pump from the close-in quick movements during the uphill "wiggle' to the wider slalom type swings for long pumps and higher speeds.
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new CX vs old CX
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On 6/8/2006 Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
I recently mounted a new set of CX's on my new pavedwave board. The new trucks have a more shiny finish and sit on a similarly shiny silver baseplate rather than the former black baseplate. Generally these trucks function in the same way as the older model however I was noticing that I couldn't get the hanger as loose as on the other version. Is it possible that the new Carver CX's are using a shorter kingpin? Anyone else noticed this difference?
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How to Pump