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| Long Distance Pumping (LDP) (1492 Posts)
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The Trap online rankings
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On 8/1/2004
Adam
wrote in from
United States
(66.121.nnn.nnn)
One time already logged on Ncdsa.com's online The Trap rankings. I didn't realize the times would be so short (1.6 sec).. that pretty much rules out the handheld stopwatch timing method.
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Obispo - Sunday, August 01, 2004
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On 8/1/2004
Chris Yandall
wrote in from
United States
(68.101.nnn.nnn)
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Portland Pusher
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On 7/31/2004
Joshua Burt
wrote in from
United States
(67.160.nnn.nnn)
The Portland Pusher series began due to a conversation with Paul Fujita.We were talking about the Skate Across America event,and wondered if anyone would do a marathon-style race from one end of Portland to the other.I decided to take action,and the series was born.The idea was to build up to the cross-town race with several smaller races,each one increasing in distance.The first race was only 3 1/2 miles on an almost completely flat bike path.Everyone pushed the entire course.The second race was 5 miles,with some small climbs and descents.Most racers were able to pump the uphill sections and pass others on the 'downhill'.The third race was held on the same course as the first,but going both ways(there and back).By then everyone had their own formula for going faster,and it proved to be the closest race so far.The next race is going to be the big one.14-18 miles with several different sections to negotiate(flat,uphill,downhill,sidewalk cracks,street crossings,etc.).The rules?Racers over 40 and under 20 start at the front,everyone else starts behind them.You can push,pump,or tick-tack for speed,but you can't get on a bus or get in a car to move ahead.For the longer races there are checkpoints where the racers numbers are taken down to ensure there are no cheaters.Entry is free,and all prizes are donated by generous sponsors.Oh,did I mention it's rain or shine?The first race included both.The others have been sunny and dry,which made it easier to pump for speed.The next race is on hold due to lack of sponsor donations.I've milked most of the sponsors for all I can,so I'm hoping to gain new interest in the series and continue with this brutal format.Ultimately,I'd like to hold a race to the beach from Portland,but for now we'll stay in town.
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More figures for Flatland Speed Records
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On 7/31/2004
Steve in AZ
wrote in from
United States
(130.13.nnn.nnn)
-I also like the idea of practicing on the CyberSlalom course. Just add two feet to the distance of the start/stop lines, and 176 is the magic number, but 44' is the MINIMUM. This rule cannot be argued.
CS: 15'start-144'cones-15'finish + 2 feet; eliminate the 3' end boxes for this.
-Official WR times will be conducted using either the 88' or 44' Trap and 6' timing strips front & rear.
-HERE is the OFFICIAL formula, _ for those of you who want it:
MPH = (3.0 X # of ft. in Trap)/(4.4 X Time in Sec.)
So if you run the 176' CS+2' course in 2.750 seconds:
MPH = 3.0 x 176/4.4 X 3.750 = 528/16.5 = 32.00 MPH
If you run the official 44' course (at Breck) in .875 seconds:
MPH = 3x44 / 4.4x.875 = 132/5.0285714 = 26.25 MPH
Go fast, critters. -=S=-
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Flatland Speed
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On 7/31/2004
Steve in AZ
wrote in from
United States
(130.13.nnn.nnn)
Kenny shaves his head?
OK! I really like all of the ideas presented here. Even if they're not held at one of the "big" races, we can do all sorts of races & contests at GRS venues. Oval, Fig-8 (with full pads), 1, 2, & multiple-mile races.
Tick-tacks (or as we knew them in AZ in the 70's, 'click-clacks') are tougher to do with no kicktail, Tom...and most of today's speed-related skateboards don't come with kicks.
I'll let others establish the parameters for different pump or push races. It may well depend soley on the venue and the available riding terrain. At the Gathering, the Cardinal picnic area was PERFECT for the hill climb. At G4, about 12 riders started 'en-masse' down one side of the loop. Once your feet were both on top of the board, there they had to stay (no pushing) until you're momentum was completely stopped, and there you had to stay, pulling over to the side but keeping your position (honor system in effect). Claude R. won the event, and I can't remember who came in second. I thought I was in third with Geezer-X stopped no more than 6" behind me!
For "THE TRAP", at least for now, will remain simple;
DO IT ANYWAY YOU CAN. Seriously!
You can push through The Trap if you want.
You can skog up to 20' prior to The Trap, coast, and then pump The Trap.
You can push to 15mph, pump to ~xx.xmph, and tuck through The Trap.
It don't matter.
Like I said, part of the fun of this is to hear about how Mike D. ran 3.5 MPH faster than me, and that he used 3 pushes vs. 2 pushes, and yadda-yadda.
Other comments on The Trap:
-CC is dead-on correct about pumping (and pushing for that matter) having "gears". There are speeds at which you would NEVER consider trying to push unless you wanted to die;
Pushing is the "lower gear" on a skateboard.
Pumping is 2nd gear, and is a deep gear, which means that there's alot of room for acceleration.
(Now comes the fun part)
There are NO equiptment restrictions. Yes, you'll be able to pump a TS board up to 20mph, but you'll eventually hit the ceiling of speed.
Longboards, GS boards, dropped or lowered DH boards may give the rider a better top end, but the energy to get them to that speed may have been used up at the lower speeds.
More in following post. Thanks, Adam!
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chris chaput / yandall MB skogunion
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On 7/31/2004
Chris Yandall
wrote in from
United States
(68.101.nnn.nnn)
Chris Chaput is making a drive down to san diego for an almamater gathering and will be stopping by to hand deliver some gumball 88a 78mm rollers here in Poway around midafternoon today. We might even attempt to clock some runs using his 176' timing grid down the MB boardwalk.
Hopefully some results to post tomorrow.
We are both excited over this somewhat virgin pavement territory since it brings new opportunities in a zillion potential directions.
skoggin off!
C Ya
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Which gear to use
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On 7/31/2004
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
I think that it will be interesting to see what kind of equipment will be used in a fast, unlimited pump-fest. When you're riding a bike, it's easy to get up to speed in a low gear but as you go faster and faster, you lose the ability to pedal that fast and you have to change to a higher gear.
I'm able to pump my speedboards even though they have very slow turning trucks, big wheels and a long wheelbase. It takes a number of good strong pushes but once you get moving, it's very stable feeling - like using high gear on your bike when going down hill. I'm guessing that the fastest pumpers will overcome the sluggish start of a longer wheelbase and larger wheel and enjoy the stability of the "high gear" that kicks in about 15mph. Lastly, aerodynamics will play a big role in top end speed because our upright pumping stance becomes a parachute if we don't lose the baggy clothes and protective gear. That's why Mollica and I shave the tops of our heads...
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Average Joe
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On 7/31/2004
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
As I recall, Dan is the only one who has suggested starting from a dead stop. This was only a suggestion and I it would be a good idea if we were merely demontration "pumping prowess". If we're going for speed, let's not limit our ability to get up to speed unnecessarily. Perhaps a long enough "no push zone" that immediately precedes the speed trap would cool the jets of anyone trying to maintain a fast push instead of a fast pump. Anything "reasonable" is fine with me. Counting pushes is tedious. This shouldn't be heavily contested aspect of the discipline. Everyone can see whether or not we're pushing or pumping.
To tell you the truth, I have no idea on whether or not I can push as fast as I can pump. Most of my fastest push/sprints are at the top of an already fast hill. Hmmm.
It will little more than a second to travel 44 feet which is not that easy to time for most people. Most of us are familiar with the 174 foot CyberSlalom course length. We are able to easily maintain a "sprint" over that length of time. I suggest that guys who have only a stopwatch and a calculator set a "trap" that is 176 feet in length. Time yourself by running the course with your stopwatch. Take 120 and divide it by the number of seconds that it took you to run the course. The result is your speed in miles per hour. mph = 120 / secs.
Here's a chart that shows the number of seconds it takes to go 176 feet and the corresponding speed in MPH.
4.0 = 30.00
4.1 = 29.27
4.2 = 28.57
4.3 = 27.91
4.4 = 27.27
4.5 = 26.67
4.6 = 26.09
4.7 = 25.53
4.8 = 25.00
4.9 = 24.49
5.0 = 24.00
5.1 = 23.53
5.2 = 23.08
5.3 = 22.64
5.4 = 22.22
5.5 = 21.82
5.6 = 21.43
5.7 = 21.05
5.8 = 20.69
5.9 = 20.34
6.0 = 20.00
6.1 = 19.67
6.2 = 19.35
6.3 = 19.05
6.4 = 18.75
6.5 = 18.46
6.6 = 18.18
6.7 = 17.91
6.8 = 17.65
6.9 = 17.39
7.0 = 17.14
7.1 = 16.90
7.2 = 16.67
7.3 = 16.44
7.4 = 16.22
7.5 = 16.00
7.6 = 15.79
7.7 = 15.58
7.8 = 15.38
7.9 = 15.19
8.0 = 15.00
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PUSH OR DEAD STOP FOR PURE PUMP RACES
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On 7/31/2004 tom
wrote in from
United States
(68.234.nnn.nnn)
I agree with both Chris and Gessmer.
If you werer going to have a separate race for just pumping aside from a skogging/push race then here is an idea.
From a dead stop, you are truly testing ONLY your pumping ability.
Since a separate pumping challenge would be all about pumping ability what about this:
No pushing, no ramp, no dead stop.
Four tick tacks and start pumping. OK, kit kat whatever. Or like Steve suggests you could "tick tack" (instead of push) like a maniac up to speed prior to the time trap?
That's a basic pumping related propulsion method and you can't cheat on that either. I kind of like this because it's a skateboard race based on propulsion where your feet never touch the ground. It would eliminate the lack of excitement and drama/entertainment value from watching a painfully slow dead stop beginning, and also eliminate the advantage of a super strong pusher who can just blast off.
Also what about a pumping relay race? Feet can never touch the ground.
Is that really lame?
Just a suggestion.
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Flat Land Racing
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On 7/31/2004
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(24.62.nnn.nnn)
ok this is cool!
Slalom has the FCR, for flat land racing
it could be the FLR series.
I think you should have seperate events for pushing
and pumping and an unlimited event where you can pump or
push.
I would like to see a longer push race, too.
Maybe a mile or two or longer.
This course could also be used for an unlimited
race where you push or pump.
Time traps are good, but I would like to see
a traditional race with everyone skating at once
for the longer events. Adds more drama and excitement.
This type of racing will help to grow the sport of skateboard
racing. This is because it is hard to get into downhill or
slalom racing (for a beginer). This will allow anybody
with a skateboard to give racing a shot, even if their
skills are not that advanced.
Of course timed events allow people from all over to
compare times on the forums, kind of like cyber slalom.
So that's cool, too.
I wonder what the record for a 1 mile flat land race,
unlimited push or pump, would be?
What about a 2 mile race?
There have been some interesting longer push races listed on
the contest calendar. Like the Portland Pusher and the NYC
Central Park race, both of which are 7 mile push (or pump)
races. I would like to see some shorter push races of the
same type. I think it would be ok to have some mild hills
on a longer course, too. Since it would be hard to find
a completely flat longer course.
It would be cool to see skateboard manufacturers produce
specialized equipment for these racing diciplines.
And of course, the same equipment would be really
good for fast cruising, also.
Just my .03 cents
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Pumping speed trap; Estimated best speed
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On 7/31/2004
Pat Chewning
wrote in from
United States
(24.21.nnn.nnn)
The Chronocone 2004 timing system has a built-in speed trap where the distance is entered and the time across the speed trap gives the speed.
The speed trap distance can be measured in meters and the speed given in KPH OR
the speed trap distance can be measured in feet and the speed given in MPH
As has already been mentioned, the conversion factor is 60MPH = 88 feet per second (one of those conversions that are memorized in engineering school).
The conversion for KPH (Kilometers per hour) to meters per second (mps) is:
1m/s = 3.6 KPH [ because 3600 s/H ; 1000m / Km ]
The best cyberslalom time is 8 seconds, which is 22 feet per second (15MPH) average over the 174 foot course. I'd estimate the the finishing speed is closer to 35fps , or about 24MPH.
So my guess is that we will see speeds around 25MPH for the fastest pumpers.
-- Pat
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THREAD PUMPIN
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On 7/30/2004
Chris Yandall
wrote in from
United States
(68.101.nnn.nnn)
Wow. Some good meat and potatos in getting details worked out. 44' in one sec for 30mph is mindboggling on the flats. I'm thinking my 34" x 9.25 for my big size 13 feet works best for both skoggin and pumpin. Heavy boards and superwide trucks don't work for me. Chaput's big green wheels so far are pretty sweet for recreational skoggin and pumpin and I'm sure the guys that are totally into shaving millesecs off of elapsed time will come up with freespining axel designs and the likes with trucks that crank a clean 45'ish degree arc etc ...
I agree the two disciplines are worlds apart but imagine creating a race where both of them are required around an oval in alternating laps or whatever permeation we all dream up. It will be interesting to see what the industry standard deck for both skogging and pumpin will evolve into. We just need some good contests to come together and determine what shreds the best on the flats. It might be refreshing for the downhillers to take a serious look at flatland skating techniques. Overall it will most likely increase the growing numbers of skaters that would rather try this venue of skateboarding in place of the ollie freaks and flair air trends and for veteran skaters another reason to skateboard.
I'd like to get video of other people skoggin and pumpin on my sites. Please email mpgs. movs, etc about the same movie dimensions(width/height) you checked me out stroking the pavement.
I'm diggin the energy and really want to get on the boardwalk with fellow pumpers and skoggers.
Email me and let me know if you want to hook up.
PUMP YOUR DECK BABY !!!!!
C YA
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Online The Trap Ranking
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On 7/30/2004
Adam
wrote in from
United States
(66.121.nnn.nnn)
Steve in AZ, The online ranking page you wanted for The Trap is ready. Let me know when you finalize the rules and I'll replace the temporary ones I cobbled together.
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Campaign funds
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On 7/30/2004
Candidate in AZ
wrote in from
United States
(130.13.nnn.nnn)
Ur...uh, hi.
Will you support me in this election year by providing me with a simple timing system? Dual 6' tape start/stop with a reset button, 50' of wire.
Anyone? How 'bout after the slalom season?
I've already got wheels comin'.
-=S=-
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I accept the nomination
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On 7/30/2004
President of Speed...in AZ
wrote in from
United States
(130.13.nnn.nnn)
You got it, Chris. Maximum Velocity. Period.
I did the calcs. at work on paper; they were simple enough. I wanted to make sure that it was easy enough to convert a raw time into MPH easily, and I think 44' is perfect.
Approach: Straight-line. Not many venues have what it takes here, but I can't see an oval or figure-8 doing anything but slowing down the effort.
Min/Max Start distance: How about NO MINIMUM and NO MAXIMUM? Too little or too long of a start distance would both only slow the rider at the trap. I say let the skaters decide and keep this simple. That said, I'm sure that after folks begin to record their fastest times, we'll start to see a standardization of starting distances. Hehe...even on Bonneville, no one cares how long or how short of a distance it took for you to get up to speed.
I'm content with leaving things as they are for now. The more rules you impose, the more those rules can be mis-interpreted. How long did it take to finally get that "One foot on the ground in the starting box with the clock starting as your front wheels pass the start line" for C.S.??
I'm hoping that my fellow speed-pusher-and-pumper-freaks across this country...nea, the WORLD...will accept the challenge and begin to run "The Trap". Get back to this forum with your preferred start distance findings and anything else you have to offer.
Thanks to CC, Dan G., Chris Y., and that "exited as a puppy" Eric "silversurfer" for getting me started with this.
Now go skate.
-=S=-
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I like where his is going...
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On 7/30/2004
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
This is an election year. I nominate Steve from AZ to write the rulebook. He's only a few commitments away. 44 feet evenly divides 5280 feet into 120, which is evenly divisible by 60. That's a pretty good distance. Long enough for accurate timing, short enough so as not to tire one out. The approach should have a generous minimum distance so as not to require quick acceleration. The real test as I understand it, is maximum speed.
Longer distance should be covered in a straight line or on a figure 8, as an oval or loop would tend to favor regular or goofy footers.
I was looking at a little chart that I did in Excel:
44' in 1 second = 30mph
44' in 2 seconds = 15mph
44' in 3 seconds = 10mph
44' in 4 seconds = 7.5mph
mph = 30 / secs
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Skogging vs. Pumping races
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On 7/30/2004 Steve in AZ
wrote in from
United States
(192.175.nnn.nnn)
Yes, toddc. I agree that these disciplines need their own contests or measure of expertise. Hill climbs (like at the Gathering each year) are great pumping contests. Skogging, one-foot or two-footed pushing would be more of a timed distance thing.
I'm proposing a unified flatland speed record standard REGARDLESS of how you get there. How fast can you get that thing going under your own power? You can push, skog, pump, paddle, blow or fart your way up to speed, it don't matter (but fire or combustion in any form is out)! In fact, that will lead contestants to try different ways. Fine.
We just need to standardize the parameters of an official contest. Nothing has yet been set, but keeping it simple is imparative.
-The speed trap should be 44' long.
-There should be an area after the trap in which to slow down or turn safely.
-There should be a minimum distance (all flat) on which to approach.
-There MAY be a maximum build-up distance, but I don't think it's neccessary for such a "sprint" style event. How much flat space would someone really need?
Everything else is up to debate until I can draft a comprehensive set of universally accepted parameters. Right now, we're just throwin' out $h!+ and seein' what sticks.
-=S=-
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skogging vs. pumping
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On 7/30/2004 toddc
wrote in from
United States
(68.121.nnn.nnn)
Very different disciplines that need separate "race" formats - let's not confuse them...
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Spectators of the SPSFSR
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On 7/29/2004 Steve in AZ (very flat where I am)
wrote in from
United States
(192.175.nnn.nnn)
...would see most of the crashes in spectacular fashion before or after the trap.
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Self-propelled Skateboard Flatland Speed Record (SPSFSR)*
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On 7/29/2004
Steve (the speed instigator) in AZ
wrote in from
United States
(192.175.nnn.nnn)
Hehe...I knew it wouldn't take too long to hear from DG and CC on this one.
Actually, since skoggin' is a way to push, I just figured pushing to be part of getting up to speed; at least for trying to set a "top speed", where your fastest MPH is the desired outcome. Pumping from a dead stop is possible but is also a lot easier on a 24" Bahne with HiJackers then on a board that would generate higher speeds (and more stability) above 20mph.
I like the "one push" start idea, but I think that would be better for a pumping contest vs. just going fast. Since the best pumpers can easily out-speed their fastest push, I thought it best to leave it up to the contestant as to how to get up to speed prior to the time trap (which I also agree is the best way to get a time). Kinda like scissors-jump vs. Fosbury Flop. Whatever gets you there.
I have yet to mark the distance in which I've generated "top speed", but the minimum start distance should be long enough to accommodate both pushers and pumpers. The Trap shbe SHORT, but not too short...say, a distance that's easily divided into 5280'/one mile...say either 44 or 88 feet (1/120th or 1/60th of a mile, respectively). If you consider that the standard Cyber Slalom course is 174', covering that in 4.00 seconds (176') would result in an approximate speed of 30.00 MPH.
Using either a 44' or an 88' trap gives a good viewing area for spectators & an easy place to set up even the most basic of timing systems. It also gives a Standard (much like what CyberSlalom has become) that can be practiced world-wide.
As with everything, the devil is in the details. It was only two years ago that the CS was standardized from start to finish. Things like running the trap in BOTH directions to eliminate the wind or pitch factor is possible.
I think this may be the beginning of a new benchmark.
-=S=-. You heard it from me first.
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Skogging
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On 7/29/2004
Adam
wrote in from
United States
(66.121.nnn.nnn)
Chris Yandall, Great posts on Skogging, nice video clip too. 21mph?! You're flying. I rode the Mission Beach boardwalk hundreds of times on my cruiser bike when I lived in PB but it was an off period for me skateboard wise.
Your feet-facing-forward stance is what alpine snowboarders call "high angles", aka 90*/90*. I've been pumping the flats almost exclusively during the past year or two but my stance is probably closer to 80*/80*. Have you tried ceramic bearings yet?! They made a huge difference for me. I also use a rockered deck for getting excellent foot lock-in and for getting a bit lower to the ground to ease pushing.
My deck of choice is a flipped Comet Don O'Shea stiff flex. 78a 3dm Avalons and original Seismics round out the setup. I run the original stiff gold springs in the rear for better power transfer, though I'm sure I'm not approaching 21mph. Do you ever slip out on the boardwalk sand?
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Getting Pushy
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On 7/29/2004
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
I'd prefer to see one push. One foot on the board, one foot on the ground. As soon as the foot on the ground is lifted, neither feet are allowed to touch the ground again. You can't drag the push foot as a way of circumventing the "one push" rule.
I understand the "pureness" of no pushing but it at the end of day, starting without any pushes is unnecessarily slow and doesn't really add any excitement or drama or. I say take one push and start pumping like a madman.
If you didn't want there to be any pushes, you could start on a small ramp but I'd rather just see one push.
The other question might be, "how do we time this"? A radar gun may produce some false results because of all of the arm flailing. It seems as if we'd be looking at an elapsed time over a known distance (speedtrap?). Then the question becomes, "how far from the start do we set the speedtrap"?
I say "build it and they will come". Con Fluitt into adding a friendly sideshow to the other 4 disciplines in Colorado. Chris, go out and figure out how far it takes you to get up a head of steam. Ball park the distance and comit to that number of yards/meters for the start. Use a good length distance so that mph/kph can be easily calculated based on elapsed time. I'll make a nice big self-serving trophy for the First Annual Gumball Rally and Dan can give out a large cash prize 8-)
Sign me up. I want to be #11.
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Flatland Unassisted Speed Record
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On 7/29/2004
Dan Gesmer
wrote in from
United States
(172.152.nnn.nnn)
Let's make this interesting...
No pushing allowed. As in, truly starting from a dead stop, testing pure pumping skills and nothing but that!
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Flatland Un-assisted Speed Record
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On 7/29/2004 Steve in AZ
wrote in from
United States
(192.175.nnn.nnn)
Huh...Y'know, Chris, I don't know if one of those records exists.
Fastest speed recorded from a dead stop, self-propelled on a skateboard, unassisted within a one mile distance.
You could push or skog up to 20 mph or so, and then pump to max. velocity.
...all on good wheels, of course. Let's take this to the Pumping or Riding Techiques forum.
-=S=-
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skoggin the flats
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On 7/29/2004
Chris Yandall
wrote in from
United States
(63.196.nnn.nnn)
one day while skoggin', a segway pulled up next me and the gent says "did you know you are going 21mph?". I was surprised. Never took the time to even think about measuring speed. So we tooled along together about 1/2 mile chatting away while passing joggers, bikers and skateboarders. Dudes, it's a great sk8Rsize. Super low impact on the joints if you use my technique that I've groomed through the years.
So you get the idea around 21mph could be an average skogging speed. If there was a world speed record on the flat from generated speed, it might be in the high 20's low 30's to hazard a guess. I'll explore that avenue.
Cheers Mates!
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How to Pump