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| Q&A: Dr David Hartman on Head Injuries (824 Posts)
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Heads in the Lobby
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On 7/31/2002
Dr. Dave
wrote in from
(12.249.nnn.nnn)
Just a reminder for anyone involved in helmet law promotion or "free helmets" for needy kids, etc., to post email or other addresses in this section for readers to add their support.
thanks, drD
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Helmet fund
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On 7/31/2002
K-LEE
wrote in from
(68.35.nnn.nnn)
Ticket revenue going to helmets for poor kids? I really like that idea, as a kid I always KNEW I should buy a helmet, but a new deck or shoes always seemed more worth saving my pennies for. And my parent's excuse was the whole "poor" bit. I probably could have qualified for a free helmet, and if I got one, I probably would have worn it, since I was the loner-skater for the first 7 years I skated. No peer pressure there. Anyway, I totally dig the "helmets for the needy" aspect, enough to now be in support of the proposed law.
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Reply
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On 7/31/2002 Christian
wrote in from
(157.201.nnn.nnn)
Rich F,
Thanks for your advice on certaintly plan on doing that, it is just that I am still recovering and have not really had time to go on any sort of crusade with this at all. In fact I am still on a heavy amount of blood thinner, resulting from the fact that my blood clots were severe enough to make my right arm swell to double normal size and my left arm was swollen to double that, my legs were both almost double normal size and the doctors almost amputated all four of my limbs (that would have sucked!!!!).
I will, more than likely, use the stories of others when I do go out and pitch the law. But, in fact, right now I am trying to get some of the top, including THE top, skaters to help me pitch this new and ingenious notion of wearing a helmet.
The thing that really trips me up and makes me struggle is that I am a hardcore Republican, and this is a very democratic law. I feel that, however, there needs to be a law about something that makes this much sense, and that WILL truly make a difference in the safety of society. I agree that it SHOULD be the rider's choice, but I feel that it is not the rider's choice to charge others for his consequences. For instance, my medical fees were at a bare minimum of $1.6 Million. I had no right to charge anyone else for my stupidity! It should not, and must not, be a decision that one should be capable of selfishly making!
-Christian
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Thankful acception
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On 7/31/2002
Christian
wrote in from
(157.201.nnn.nnn)
Dear K-Lee,
Thank you so much for accepting my apology, I simply took it personal that an adult who rode was claiming this as a stupid law (which is what it sounded like to me, as stupid as I was). You have absolutley no need to even ponder on an apology to me at all. All of your comments are arguments that I have heard before and I simply did not think before I spoke(or in this case wrote).
This law will, almost unavoidably, have a positive effect on the stereotypical skater who wears a helmet. The industry will definitely change the image of, 'the helmet', and this will occur for the same reason that most things in our world occur: MONEY. This will make helmets a much higher selling product and it will create a higher demand therefore lowering prices and therefore making them accesible by all. Everyone, in that if they cannot afford one the government will pay for it from the money pulled in from the fines given out to those without helmets.
K-Lee, I totally appreciate the respect you showed and the classy response to my apology. It means so much to me when my accident can help someone else out, and that is why I am so passionate about this law.
Thank you so much,
Christian
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Acceptance rate
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On 7/31/2002
K-LEE
wrote in from
(68.35.nnn.nnn)
I'm curious, when any of you go to a helmet-free park or spot, how many kids do you see that are wearing their helmets despite the fact that they don't have to? What kind of percentages do we have right now? When I go to my local pad-free park, I feel blessed when I'm not the only kooky helmet-headed freak. Even if one or two of the in-line kids are wearing theirs, I don't feel like I stick out like such a sore thumb. For me personally, the whole image part was a big factor in the helmet issue. I have to admit, I feel less like a mushroomhead off of Mario Bros. and more like someone these kids could respect when I'm wearing my WWII German Bomber-esque Greatful Headz Hawg helmet. I get a lot of, "Wow, cool helmet dude! All it needs is a spike on top!" Anyway, I'm finding something like 5%-10% helmet use, including the BMX and Rollerblade kids, and the daycare-dropoff kids. Among the "cool" ripper kids, more like 2%. What kinds of numbers are you all seeing?
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helmet use
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On 7/31/2002
snoball
wrote in from
(65.32.nnn.nnn)
I've heard lots of crash stories and even had a friend die, a long time ago, from a skate related injury in the L.A. riverbed. But it was Patio Mendino's story that *really* motivated me. At the risk of becoming an instant target though,
there are times I do not use a helmet. There are risks, but I accept that and moderate my riding a bit.
I agree with K-LEE about marketing. Totally. Helmets are required in many skateparks but it has little impact on the skaters once they leave and go home to lidless riding. For
young ones, image is sometimes everything so the media would
do well to show the pros etc with helmets on. All the time,in
every photo.
What I *don't* think is a good idea is criminalizing skaters such as ticketing them on the street. An already overburdened police department having to deal with this additional duty doesn't make sense. If they're minors, ticket the parents, not the kid. If they're legal adults: deal with responsibility or get off your board.
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Stories
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On 7/31/2002
Rich F
wrote in from
(192.97.nnn.nnn)
Christian,
Be sure to incude other stories besides your own in your crusade. The law may force people to wear a helmet but the ultimate goal is to make people want to wear a helmet. Everybody has a "this won't happen to me" or "this doesn't apply to me because I don't downhill" or "I'm invincible" attitude which is perfectly normal, but also your greatest enemy. Your story is super bad but it will take a multitude of stories from all types of skating to make an impact.
A freak fall can happen to anyone at any time. Your goal is to make people realize this fact. For a gymnast a freak fall means landing on a 4-8 inch crash mat. For a skater its concrete, brain damage, or death. Suggest to even a world class gymnast that they do anything over concrete they'll tell you your crazy.
It was the multitude of horrible crash stories on this site, not just one, that educated me into a religious helmet wearer. What we need is a free book or magazine of these stories readily available everywhere skating supplies are sold or where people skate. The states money should go into stuff like that and positive advertising (TV, bilboards) that show helemts as cool, rather than negative enforcement through heavy ticketing that will create a negative response.
I'm sure dealers would think that it would scare off buisiness, but dealers and skaters need to come to grips with the reality that this is a dangerous and potentialy deadly sport.
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It's all good
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On 7/31/2002
K-LEE
wrote in from
(68.35.nnn.nnn)
Thanks Christian, I too apologize for over-reacting a bit. Let's just say your post gave me digital diarrhea, I couln't stop typing. First, it irked me a bit, but then it stimulated me to give the issue some real thought. I honestly had never REALLY given thought to what it would take to make helmet's "cool". And, although I still feel that education and marketing are the key to the younsters, I can see how a minor law like the bike helmet law COULD be a good back up for a "cool" campaign. I'm just finding out how different the mindset is between New Mexico and California. We don't have any bike helmet law here, and I doubt I'll ever see one. Albuquerque is a bit lawless, that's why we ride the "No Trespassing" ditches more than the public skatepark. It's the wild wild west here, and a "skate helmet" law wouldn't do a darn thing. But, I've lived on the west coast for a while (Washington state) and I remember how much more of a "community" it seemed to me. And, now that I think about it, I could see the "peer pressure" thing, especially now that jocks and skaters are one and the same. When I was a skate-punk, that was it. There were no popular or "cool" kids skating, either you were popular, or you skated. No in between. It's totally different now, and we just might be able to market helmets to all those budding extreme athletes out there. I mean, it really is becoming a "sport", although for me when I was young and impressionable, it was more of an artistic crime. But this whole "sport" aspect of skating might make safety a much more palatable idea for the youth of today. And I've noticed how Tony's always got his helmet on, but I just wish he'd adjust that dangling strap! So, let's shake hands electronically and consider ourselves comrades on the same side of the helmet issue. It's obviously something we BOTH feel strongly about, and seem to agree on. Right on, my friend. Skate safe and ride on.....
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Reply
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On 7/30/2002 Christian
wrote in from
(157.201.nnn.nnn)
Dear K-Lee,
I am totally sorry that I talked down to you. I genuinely apologize! It is just that I have seen numerous statistics about the Helmet Law for bikes, and the difference that it made, and this is something, that for some strange reason, I am very passionate about. I agree with what you say in that it will give them more reason to not wear a helmet. It is just that if, and when, this gets the majority of the kids to wear helmets, then the rest will feel peer pressure to "fit in". I know that there will always be the total punk kid who rebels against everything, but he can get hurt and I don't care, his loss. It is just that I feel that if some cool guy at a high school started wearing a tight speedo to surf in, then more and more would wear one, and eventually it would actually become desirable to surf in a speedo (go figure!). And this is already being pitched by those in the public's eye. For instance, you will never see any video where Tony Hawk is not wearing a helmet. It is crucial to educate kids about the consequences of not wearing a helmet. The Helmet industry will soon be selling helmets in CA for far less than they are right now, and some of the money from the tickets will be used to buy the "economically less-privileged" their own helmets.
My sincerest apology,
-Christian
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Vert Aids & Other Non-Head Injury Issues
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On 7/29/2002 lbk
wrote in from
(166.90.nnn.nnn)
Dr. Dave,
I agree that we should lobby our legislatures, gear mfgrs, etc. for better, safer equipment. I have posted on NCDSA in the past stating that I think that skateboard safety equipment has not advanced in 20 years. In fact, the helmet industry has gone backwards for skateboarding by selling helmets that are no more than toys.
Why is that some of the snowboard helmets manufacturers are trying to use more modern materials and designs but skateboard helmet manufacturers use cheap plastic shells? And why does the most popular skateboard pad company sell the worst quality pads we have seen since the mid 1970’s.
Skateboard helmets and pads need some real R&D going on. I don’t blame the kids for not wearing pads. The stuff that is made today doesn’t apply to street skating needs. I’ll even venture to say the typical street skater doesn’t go fast enough or big enough to warrant helmets. However, with all respect to the horror stories we have heard on NCDSA and read in ILB, downhill riding and slalom should include the use of helmets.
Just some thoughts on my part. Dr. Dave & the others on this forum, keep up the good work on the helmet issue.
DR
BTW, “Vert Aids” is a term from the 80’s when a number of skaters were getting hospitalized with a serious case of staff infection from their kneepads. Skaters would scrape their knees, keep on riding with dirty pads and then get an infection. If not treated, it would become bad enough that the strongest drugs were needed with days in the hospital to stop the infection. Otherwise the infection would get gang green and that could have lead to limb and life issues. I wanted to bring up Vert Aids as a discussion point just in case the head injury forum was getting stale.
Back to the head injury issues.........
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shin splints therapy
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On 7/29/2002
snoball
wrote in from
(65.32.nnn.nnn)
uh, just to break up the helmet law thing for a sec...
re: shin splints.
disclaimer: I am NOT a medical doctor.
I have suffered from shin splints at various times. When I was a competitive fencer I trained hard and frequently during the week and started to develop shin splints. I went to a doctor who at one point was staffed on the Tampa Bay Bucs, so he was pretty knowledgeable about sports related ailments and how to handle them and this is basically what he did for me:
1) he showed me an exercise where you stand facing a wall, place your hands flat against it about shoulder width apart, and gently rock back and forth between your toes and heels.
2) he said to reduce my physical activity by 50% till the pain subsides but NOT to stop training or being active altogether
3) he said they aren't really sure what *causes* shin splints
4) he gave me a prescription of Napralan to take prior to my
training, but it was as needed and i found i didn't really need it
5) he emphasized stretching and flexibility being very important but i kinda knew that already
I did the exercises faithfully, reduced my training schedule by that 50% and within a few weeks my shin splints 'went away' ( i put that in quotes because i am prone to them
and they come back on occasion )
By the time I went to see him they had become VERY painful, to the point walking hurt, and doing as he suggested really did help. Also, massaging my shins lightly helped too and that may have been because it helps blood flow a little.
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3rd in a row....
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On 7/29/2002
K-LEE
wrote in from
(68.35.nnn.nnn)
Actually, it would be best if the kiddies wore their helmets not because it's cool, or because it's the law. They should wear their helmets to keep from becoming brain-dead vegetables! Nothing is more convincing that the full-blown truth, and that's where you're video might come in useful. If the kids see footage like yours and read stories like P@io's (which opened my eyes), then the smart ones will WANT to wear a helmet, and the truly ignorant ones wouldn't wear one even if you gave it to them for free and made it the law. You've got to give them the choice to make, so they know WHY they're making it. Then even if the law is dropped from the books 20 years from now, or if society collapses and all anarchy breaks loose, the smart ones will KEEP wearing their helmets. I don't wear a seatbelt because it's a law, I wear one to keep from flying through the windshield. I'd wear a seatbelt if I was Mad Max roaming around the highways of post-apocalyptic wastelands in my turbo-charged hot rod, even though I wouldn't get a ticket for not wearing it. I'll wear my helmet EVERY time I skate, not just if it's in a state that has a helmet law. What happens when these pre-conditioned kids come out to some place like lawless New Mexico to skate? It'll be like when "underage" kids go to Juarez or Vancouver BC to drink. "It's okay to do there, so lets go there and do it." A CA kid will come out to visit his relatives in NM, go to the skatepark with his cousin and see that there's obviously no helmet laws here, and decide to skate with the wind blowing in his hair for a change. BAM! "Those Californian kids got too used to their helmet law, can't hang with us hard-headed ignorant folk!" I guess I see way to many people go running to the lawmakers when they want something positive done, and I rarely see that positive thing achieved. Ah, well, survival of the fittest I guess. Us fellow helmet wearers should live long enough to pass on our genes, and eventually we'll be a race of nothing but helmet-heads. So, I'm with you on this, Christian, honestly. I just suggest you focus more on the education and information part, and less on the threats and scare tactics. Kids are as smart as you give them credit for being.
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...Ah, but I must sling just a BIT of mud...
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On 7/29/2002
K-LEE
wrote in from
(68.35.nnn.nnn)
"Yet if you were smart enough to look up information on"...this site..."you would easily and quickly see"...this in the posting guidelines:
"Cross-posting
Some people think that if they post their message to more than one forum, that people will have a better chance of seeing it. Wrong. Our site stats show that most visitors read every new post, so posting the same message to multiple forums just mucks up the works. Refrain from this cyber no-no."
Alright, I'm done. Let our friend Christian read this one, and then file it off to dev/null!
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Der, ahm Ignernt
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On 7/29/2002
K-LEE
wrote in from
(68.35.nnn.nnn)
So, are the non-helmet wearing criminals the ones who are ignorant, or am I the ignorant one for simply remembering how a 12 year old thinks? As I said in my post, I'm a huge supporter of helmet use for all kinds of roller activities. I always wear a helmet myself and encourage all those I skate with to wear one. Do you know how many good helmets I've straight up given to friends so they can skate the "helmet required" parks with me? Not a whole lot, but 2 or 3, and that's 2 or 3 that didn't have a helmet before hand. This is obviously a sensitive issue for you, which is fully understandable. I wasn't trying to downplay your incident at all; it's a horrific example of why we all MUST wear our helmets. I wasn't disagreeing with you either. I'm all for getting all the skaters to wear helmets. But I was simply playing devil's advocate, bringing up a viewpoint you're sure to run into. And, I ALWAYS try to avoid mud-slinging on this forum, we're all brethren here. However, I quote "Yet if you were smart enough to look up information on past laws that have had the same ramifications (In your terms: consequence/result); such as the seatbelt law, or helmet law for Motorcycles or bicycles, you would easily and quickly see that it does mean it should be a law." Why do you feel you need to attack my intelligence? If YOU were "smart" enough to look up information, you'd have found my post detailing the trigonometric concepts behind truck geometry and how increasing or decreasing wedge angles affects this. You'd have found the explicit formula I derived for calculating rpm's given wheel diameter in mm and speed in mph. You'd have found my post explaining how the Quantum Mechanical Schrödinger’s Equation could, theoretically, be used to describe the path of the slalom skater if you could gather enough detailed information about the system of the skater/skateboard. Yeah, I know, math isn't everything. But I AM smart enough to wear a helmet, and to tell others why they should too. And I'm smart enough not to attack you back with more negativity. The point I'm trying to make is this: Making stuff like jaywalking, littering, helmet use, graffiti, and skateboarding itself punishable by a fine doesn’t do a thing for the teenagers who need to be convinced the most. You don’t make a kid wear a helmet by threatening him with a ticket if he doesn’t. He’ll hop your fence and TP your house and spray paint your car. And the fact that those things are “against the law” doesn’t slow him down one bit. In fact, it makes it more exciting for him. But go ahead, make a helmet law. At least it’s based on an actual good concept, unlike most other “for your own good” type of laws. I just think, if you want those skate punk kids (don’t worry, I was one of the most arrogant myself) to wear a helmet, don’t scare them with Johnny Law, show them a picture of Chad Muska and Tony Hawk wearing theirs. Make it cool. They’re making helmets now with headphones built in and “cool” baseball-type visors built in. That’s the key, I’m telling you. You’re not going to force kids into helmets. You have to create the need, and in this industry, it’s all about image. Our viewpoints are more streamlined than you think; we just have different amounts of faith in the “system”. So, Christian, peace, my brother. Good luck with pushing your law through, and if it gets even a handful more kids wearing helmets than throwing them away, then I applaud it. I’m just skeptical of the persuasiveness of the Man among our youth, because if the authority says it’s a good idea, it must be worth undermining. Just the $0.02 of a helmet wearing math nerd.
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Reply
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On 7/29/2002 Christian
wrote in from
(157.201.nnn.nnn)
K-Lee: Your ignorant statement,about the MAN, is true. Yet if you were smart enough to look up information on past laws that have had the same ramifications (In your terms: consequence/result); such as the seatbelt law, or helmet law for Motorcycles or bicycles, you would easily and quickly see that it does mean it should be a law. You are correct in saying that it doesn't put an end to it but it surely, without a doubt, will retard the staggering statistics and if it saves but one family from going through what mine went through it is worth all the effort one-hundred fold!
-Christian D.
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Helmet laws
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On 7/29/2002
K-LEE
wrote in from
(68.35.nnn.nnn)
Just because something is a good idea, doesn't mean it should be a law. Now the kids have one more reason NOT to wear the helmet, becasue the MAN wants them to. Don't get me wrong, I wear a helmet when I skate and recommend it to all who roll. But, if making something illegal put an end to it, we wouldn't have the joke we call a Drug War.
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my death!
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On 7/29/2002
Christian D.
wrote in from
(157.201.nnn.nnn)
I am someone who you will all have to put up with (wether you like it or not!) within a couple of months, when Gray Davis signs it into law. I recently spoke to the CA Senate and Assembly Transportation Comittee's on a Bill that will make all of you under 18 wear a helmet on a skateboard, scooter, or on in-line skates (fag-boots). I can take credit for it because I am personally responsible for getting a vote dedicated to me and also for getting someone to show utmost class and vote against party lines. This came as a result of my unfortunate bail on a hill when I was going approx. 35 mph without a helmet. Because of this fall I suffered a heart-attack, severe cranial pressure, hyper blood clotting (almost forcing the doctors to amputate all 4 limbs), and I also had my left pupil explode, as well as suffering from the simple and minor side-effect of death!
It was a blast!
Two months of hell, and gladly I can only remember approx. the last three and one half weeks.
I caught the actual accident on film and I created a news story for my high school media program with it, as well as pictures of me in the hospital, that earned my school national recognition.
I beg you all, even those over 18 to wear a helmet. You never think it will happen to you, but it will/does/has to me! I was even good enough to have gotten sponsored and I have hit 60 mph on my board before so don't think it was because I suck!
I still love to ride and can't wait until next October when it will have been a year and I can get back out on my Flexdex pro40!!!!! I am stoked out of my mind, I am an addict of downhill!!!
Keep Ridin' brah!!!
-Christian D.
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Not a head injury
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On 7/29/2002
ICE
wrote in from
(165.121.nnn.nnn)
What are shin splints? I think I got one. How do we avoid them? Whats going on in there? How dose one keep it from coming back? What are the long term effects it not fully recoved from them, and one keeps pushing it? Maybe I'm parinoid, I don't know. Just keeps bugging me, though not as much as it use to. Thanks for any info.
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Heads etc.
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On 7/27/2002
Dr. Dave
wrote in from
(12.249.nnn.nnn)
lbk,
This area can include discussion about falling and head injury, helmet safety and development, kids and helmets, crashing and recovery, cognitive rehabilitation from injury, safety lobbying and helmet laws, personal stories and questions related to diagnosis, treament and referals (although we can't provide an Official Diagnosis or Treatment on the web and any commentary or advice doesn't take the place of Official Medical Advice From Your Doctor).
I'm open to topics related to any of these and also hope to have readers lobby their legislatures, gear mfgrs, etc. for better, safer equipment.
best,
drD
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Vert Aids
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On 7/26/2002 lbk
wrote in from
(209.244.nnn.nnn)
I think this forum should include more than just head injuries. For example, here is one to talk about;
"Vert Aids", What is it & What causes it?
Hint, it has nothing to do with AIDS and it is not a head injury.
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thank you K-LEE
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On 7/17/2002
Patio Mendino
wrote in from
(207.16.nnn.nnn)
I hope I saved your life. or at least kept you from living it out riding a chair.
P's out
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Why I wear a helmet
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On 7/16/2002
K-LEE
wrote in from
(68.35.nnn.nnn)
I just wanted to mention that P@io's head injury story in ILB is EXACTLY what it took to get me wearing a helmet when I skate. I said "Damn, it only takes one good bump!" and I started searching for the perfect helmet, which I have yet to find. So here's a question, would drilling ventilation holes in my Greatful Headz helmet comprimise the structural integrity? I figure so, but that thing gets so hot, I feel like I AM kyaking in my own sweat after a few runs and I want to dunk my head into the river to cool off, but alas, I am at the skatepark and have to settle for wiping it out with my T-shirt after every run. Too bad, it fits great and isn't too heavy. It just gets so darn hot in there.
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Empty-headed kids
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On 7/15/2002
Dr. Dave
wrote in from
(12.249.nnn.nnn)
U.S. study finds few children wear safety helmets
CHICAGO (Reuters) - Fewer than one in six children observed biking, roller-skating, skate-boarding or riding scooters wore a safety helmet, a habit for which adults bear responsibility, Texas researchers said Sunday.
The observational study of 814 children in eight Texas communities found only 14 percent donned a safety helmet while engaging in these activities, and one in four of those wore the protective headgear incorrectly, the study's author, Dr. Samuel Forjuoh of the Scott and White Santa Fe Center in Temple, Texas, wrote.
"Helmet use was influenced mostly by adult and peer helmet use, indicating that education and interventions should target children and their parents," Forjuoh wrote in the Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine, a journal published by the American Medical Association.
"We believe that helmets offer the only proven form of physical protection from head and traumatic brain injuries from many sporting and leisure activities associated with a propensity for falls and collisions," he wrote.
Bicycle accidents alone result in more than 700 deaths and 500,000 hospital emergency room visits annually in the United States, the report said. More than half of bicycle-related injuries occur in children 14 or younger.
"When parents or adults take the safety lead by wearing helmets themselves, child compliance may improve," he wrote.
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My helmets...
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On 7/9/2002
Patio Mendino
wrote in from
(66.168.nnn.nnn)
*helmet #1) ProTec full cut. this is a whitewater type helmet. it has padding that doesn't absorb water. this keeps it light for kayakers, and for skating it doesn't absorb tons of sweat like the standard sponge foam padding. The padding itself is denser, and takes up a lot less room in the helmet. this gives super breathability. I bought this helmet mainly for outdoor skateparks. it has lots of coverage to keep the sun off my Irish head, it is very breathable, and the white color is very solar reflective. I have been wearing it as an all-around skatepark helmet and liking it.
*helmet #2) ProTec Ace skate: nice helmet, thick foam padding. gets hot and sweat filled in a hurry. use for parks, spring snowboarding, and downhill/slalom up to 25mph...chromey...mmmm
*helmet #3) ProTec Ace Snow. no vents, dense style foam padding. removeable ear flaps for sub 30deg days. groove/strap for holding goggles in place. Nice sturdy helmet for cold snowboard or skate riding. Dark navy blue, to absorb heat on those chilly days. and that "harley half-helmet" look also means that this is my choice for those downtown/campus night time cruisin sessions...
*helmet #4) full face motocross helmet. for when I go 30+...
************************
if you skate outdoors in the heat, get a light colored helmet!
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It's sad not to wear a helmet. . .
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On 7/8/2002
Dr. Dave
wrote in from
(12.249.nnn.nnn)
Adding another reason to wear helmets. . .
From the Chicago Tribune Sunday 7/7/02, it was noted that injuries to the left frontal hemisphere "can disrupt somebody's ability to receive positive emotion, and that could lead to depression." Right frontal damage could lead to an inability to experience a real threatening situation as fearful (Betcha didn't know that James Bond had right frontal brain-damage. . .)
Left frontal head trauma can frequently trigger depression, as researchers find that this area of the brain is more susceptible to damage. One study on veterans who had head trauma during combat found that they had a 54 percent increased lifetime risk of depression than soldiers who didn't have a brain injury.
The good news seems to be that some of the older antidepressants (tricyclics) are providing useful in treating this "organic" depression.
Best,
drD
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