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| Vendor's Corner (9204 Posts)
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Brake Your Heart
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On 6/16/2007
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(72.134.nnn.nnn)
Michael, My suggestion below says, "Boots, bindings, hooks, straps, magnets, or other attachment devices are prohibited". I think that it's safe to say that velcro falls squarely under the "other attachment devices" category.
"Because if you run six, with two wheels running above the surface (as in a luge, except for braking and turns) you would be able to create a braking device by cranking down the bearings on those wheels that only contact the ground when pressure is applied. Yes... I do understand that 6 wheeled boards do tend to have all six in contact with the ground, but in luge two of those wheels are lifted clear until pressure is applied".
I'm not sure why anyone who knows what he is doing would set up his streetluge, speedboard, or slalom board with two of the wheels up off the ground. There was a time when people thought that more wheels meant more rolling resistence, but that paradigm changed years ago.
If someone were to set up an extra set of wheels that acted as a brake every time that he made a turn, I want to race him. He's probably the same guy that is free to crank down his bearings as a way to brake. Or he is free to flex a rubber belly pad on the underside of his board down into the ground to scrub speed. Or he can do what you're suggesting, only he'd use some fixed but non-rolling feature on his board that would contact the ground and act as a brake when leaning. You sure are interested in brakes and braking. My focus is on going faster, not trying to slow down.
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ontopic
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On 6/16/2007
slim
wrote in from
United States
(75.61.nnn.nnn)
that 20-wheel thing below doesn't really have trucks. do you still consider that a skateboard? i'm pretty sure 99.9% of skateboarders wouldn't.
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cool
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On 6/16/2007
slim
wrote in from
United States
(75.61.nnn.nnn)
Chris, there you go again with the mocking. You can convince yourself that some of us don't buy your wheels because you're not "cool" all you want, but the real reason is that we don't like the way you treat people on these forums (and sometimes in real life too). My shopping preferences aren't about "image" or "cool". They are merely about wanting my money to go to people I like. Be it buying products made in the 1st world as much as possible, or buying from people whose approach to business and life I prefer. we've all gotta make our choices somehow. I guess most people buy based just on the product itself. I prefer a bigger picture. So mock me all you want - the bottom line is you won't be getting any of my money. And yes, it limits my choices. But I have plenty of fun with the stuff I have (good guess on manx for slalom and kryptos for downhill. i ride s#@!fire wheels for vert, rainskates for fun/sliding).
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Bindings
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On 6/16/2007
Jack Smith
wrote in from
United States
(66.215.nnn.nnn)
Grip tape, toe-stops...yes
Bindings...no?
I desire a more positive foot/deck interface, something beyond grip tape, toe-stops and foam wedges. Think mountain bike cleats. Coming soon.
Not for air.
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There are limits...
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On 6/16/2007 Michael
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(87.114.nnn.nnn)
Your argument about toe stops would ban the popular Kaliber one and Skyhooks....but allow velcro.....!
You ask to keep it simple.
As I said before. Lean steer, four wheels, two trucks. No brakes. Because if you run six, with two wheels running above the surface (as in a luge, except for braking and turns) you would be able to create a braking device by cranking down the bearings on those wheels that only contact the ground when pressure is applied. Yes... I do understand that 6 wheeled boards do tend to have all six in contact with the ground, but in luge two of those wheels are lifted clear until pressure is applied.
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That's Right!
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On 6/16/2007
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(72.134.nnn.nnn)
Here's a 14 wheeler. It's not likely to win, but it can run. Why shouldn't it be allowed to? It fits the standard (lean steer deck with wheels, no bindings...). People won't add more wheels when it doesn't make sense for them to do so. That's where it stops. You wanna race on 20? I'd LOVE to see you try. How about 4 split-wheels? Is that okay with you? If not, why not?
Cycles are NOT lean steer vehicles. Neither are scooters. Cycling is an area where the nature (and name) of the vehicle is changed when you start adding or removing wheels.
Unicycles (ridden very differently than bikes, trikes, and quads)
Bicycles (ridden very differently than unicycles, trikes, and quads)
Tricycles (ridden very differently than unicycles and bikes)
Quads (ridden very differently than unicycles and bikes)
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A question.....
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On 6/16/2007
Steve C.
wrote in from
United States
(67.41.nnn.nnn)
So, any number of wheels? Any? I can run a 20 wheeler? At what point does it stop. If I remember correctly, Dan Hughes posted the rules about bicycle racing and it get very specific. One of the things it limits IS the number of wheels. It also bans sit down bikes and what not. So is bike racing stupid because it limits the number of wheels? Just a thought.
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Distinction (without the attitude)
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On 6/16/2007
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(72.134.nnn.nnn)
The distinction is very clear Michael. I thought that you would have seen the differences.
A skateboard is defined as a lean-steer standing platform (deck) with any number of wheels attached to it.
Snakeboards and inline skates aren't lean steer. Yes, it is usually leaned when it is steered, but there is a twisting motion from the foot that requires a boot or bindings. An inline skater can be in a snowplow with each skate leaning in opposite directions and still turn by twisting and sliding the skates in one direction.
I think that simply stating the intent of the author at the beginning of the rules section goes a long toward explaining one's position on such matters. For example:
The ISSA allows and encourages a variety of skateboards to compete in its races. The ISSA limits it participants to riding only skateboards and expressly prohibits the use of rollerskates (both quad-skates, inline skates, or hybrids thereof), scooters, bicycles, tricycles, and any vehicle with handle bars used for steering. It is intent to have racers stand on top of their boards while racing, without being otherwise attached to their boards. Boots, bindings, hooks, straps, magnets, or other attachment devices are prohibited. Griptape, traction pads, toe-stops, kicktails and special board contours are allowed with some restrictions (see section XX for details). Aside from the assistance of gravity and pushing at the start of a race (described in section XY), a racer is only allowed to generate speed by "pumping" or otherwise maneuvering his skateboard . The use of a motor, jet, sail, or any other device used to propel the racer is prohibited. Brakes or braking devices, other than a racer's shoe, are prohibited.
Keep it simple. Use plain english. Don't create complex definitions where simple ones would suffice. Keep it real. Unless and until someone shows up in an all metal suit and parks a giant magnet at the finish line, you don't need to write a rule that prohibits it. The same goes for toe ropes from low flyinging helicpters, friends running along side with leaf blowers, and racers with paintball guns nailing his opponent on the way down.
I think that the issue of "Binding vs Toe Stops" can be pretty easily addressed. You can state that features on the standing platform of the deck cannot extend or protrude at an angle past 90 degrees - it cannot overhang or cover any part of the foot or shoe. A sky-hook would be prohibited because it overhangs the foot, but a block or stop that allows the foot to be positioned against (but not "under") it would be allowed.
I think that it's inherently dangerous to step "into" something as opposed to stepping "onto" something. The IGSA has very specific rules against toe loops or any other piece of the vehicle "enclosing" the rider in their streetluge/downhill rulebook.
Of course the distinction between a "skateboard with a binding" and a rollerskate becomes an issue that is brought about by allowing boots, bindings, strap, hooks, velcro, magnets, etc.
Again, I think that any portion of the standing platform that extends beyond vertical - anything that overhangs, encloses, or otherwise attaches the foot to the board is a safety concern and can be dealt with accordingly. This also has the effect of limiting any type of "fairing" that was dangerous for the same reason.
Although it's a separate issue, the likelihood of lifting the front wheels over a tapeswitch at the start of a race (intentionally or not) would be increased by the use of the aforementioned bindings. I have other ideas of how to deal with that on ramps...
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hey!
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On 6/16/2007 Sam of NY
wrote in from
United States
(68.193.nnn.nnn)
hey I think I've seen that picture before! but then it was a discussion about aerodynamics and the blue fairings on the bottom right. anyway I still got to need to try out those big zigs... how do they compare with the gumballs in an ease of drift control standpoint for racing? later hommie.
BB# 1106
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CC s frutboot fruitloop
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On 6/16/2007 Michael
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(87.114.nnn.nnn)
Chris please explain what the difference is between a fruitboot and a 'modified skateboard' ....?
using your inane, repetitive arguments what you've just illustrated is merely a progression of skateboards, or modifed ones...
If we dont have definitions as to what a skateboard is, your basically going to have events called 'cone dodging on anything you want event'.....
Me...I want to slalom on a skateboard. And those have four wheels.
So...would you want a snakeboarder to try tight slalom racing...Ive seen one go through a course. And pretty fast too. Ugly as sin though.
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Function First
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On 6/16/2007
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(72.134.nnn.nnn)
Would it be "fair" to mandate that everyone use exactly four wheels per skate in inline racing because "that's what we've seen the most of" over the last several decades? Or how about "because quad skates always had four wheels". Golly Wilbur, that's a good reason.
Would it be fundamentally fair to mandate that people with small feet use four wheels per skate when three is safer, faster, and makes more sense? Should you also proclude someone with size 18 feet from using five wheels on his skates? What about that clapper hinge thingy? I don't understand it. It's different. Let's ban it.
Racers will always gravitate toward what they think will work best, and sometimes they change their minds. It's a matter of function. Guys used to use five wheels and girls used four. Now guys are using four bigger wheels and girls still use four. Experience and time will show trends and evolution in equipment. If you don't want to evolve, you will die. Period.
Is it fair that someone who weighs 240 pounds be forced to ride the same skateboard that an 80 pounder rides? Maybe he should have make his own wheels if doesn't like it. Or my favorite, "put on your own race if you don't like it". Maybe we should start using weight classes as a way of separating the racers to make it fair.
Or maybe we should let riders choose something that works for him best.
"But those are rollerskates" you say? The IGSA allows any number of wheels on streetluges and downhill skateboards. They recently increased the weight limitation on boards so that riders of all sizes can ride boards that suit them best. Past attempts to regulate the way that equipment looked and performed was met with a voilent backlash from the racers, and the rules today are more permissive than ever.
Posers are the only ones who care about looks.
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definition?
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On 6/16/2007
msk
wrote in from
United States
(66.214.nnn.nnn)
"Seems to me that there is nothing more fundamental to the definition of a skateboard than the number of wheels. Over the last 50 years or so, shapes and lengths of boards have changed, the materials they are made out of has fluctuated, trucks have incorporated many different designs, wheel materials/sizes/shapes have changed, bearing material and construction has changed. But there is one thing that has remained constant for 99% of skateboards in use: they have had four wheels."
So fundamental to the definition, that many definitions don't even mention it...
Is the fact that skateboards have generally had 4 wheels a matter of definition, or of function?
Since the type of riding dictates skateboard design, I'd have to conclude that the reason boards tend to have 4 wheels is a matter of function. Boards with 2, 6, and 8 wheels go back as far as I can remember. And in most cases, they simply didn't work as well as 4. People didn't use them not because they weren't traditional, they didn't use them because they didn't work. The added weight becomes a disadvantage when attempting most street, vert, and freestyle moves. The main selling point of a 6, added traction, is irrelevant to most types of skating as well. If anyone's going to attempt to kickflip a big stair set on a 6, it'll be for the novelty factor, rather than because it'll work better.
But in the case of GS, those disadvantages aren't there (at least on paper). Maybe there still are some, and maybe the races that Chaput won on a 6 would've been by an even higher margin had he been on 4. Or maybe the 6 actually does give an advantage. Right now, based on race results, the advantages/disadvantages of using a 6 seem to be right on a par with wheel or truck choice...
ps: interesting how every time I've posted on this issue on this forum, the black box # ALWAYS ends with "6"
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slim is core
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On 6/16/2007
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(72.134.nnn.nnn)
Hey Slim, Where's the handbook? Damn, I want to be like you! Four wheels down!!! Live to ride, ride to live!!! Vans and DC shoes are the bOmB and Etnies and Adio are gay! Jackass RULZ the poolZ fer sure dude!!! Z-Boyz for life!! green Day sold out to corporate America so they are soooooo lame now!!! Sex Pistols kick a$$!!! Gnar-core Arnachy baby. That's what I'm talkin' about. Me and homies are kickin' it with my beoches. I'm punk rock. I was a punk before you were a punk!!! STFU! Yeah, that's it! Shut up and skate. You shut up cuz I skate 103A all day and all night. Sex and drugs and rock and roll. Live hard, die young!!!!!! You're a keyboard racer and a poser. Helmets and pads are gay. Obey your thirst!! Lick my mohawk!! yer gonna be on the cover of Thrasher fer sure, DDDDDUUUUUUDDDDDEEEEE!!!!!! I use the Chris Tell Method. I tell chris what to do and it makes me feel good. That's how slim rolls tootsie. What have got to sell slim, because I'm buyin' it!
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"cool gear"
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On 6/15/2007 PSR
wrote in from
United States
(75.69.nnn.nnn)
Hey, Slim, SELL!
If you go by the percieved hype, and wish to only emulate those whose 'style' suits your preference, then by all means, ditch all your 3DM/Seismic stuff, and any 'green' wheels from ABEC 11. It'll leave you with, um, Manx,[Payaso+PowerPaw+Exate are really hard-to-find) and Kryptonics/Bravo (RollerBladeDudes!) stateside, though there's a few of those 'other' countries that have skateboard wheels, too.
You sound very much like someone who buys stuff 'cause of the Label, whether it's a label that's 'cool', or one you apply to suit your view of this world.
Good luck Shopping....
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ridiculous
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On 6/15/2007
slim
wrote in from
United States
(75.61.nnn.nnn)
Ridiculous for stating that while all else has evolved about them, skateboards have consistently had four wheels? Or for having purchasing preferences based on opinions of those whose pockets my money will be going into? Or prefering pool skaters and punk rock to figure skating manuevers and classical? I suppose it is ridiculous. But we all need some method or other for deciding where we spend our money. And that's my method.
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The New 75mm BigZigs
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On 6/15/2007
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(72.134.nnn.nnn)
The 75mm BigZig is the wider (58mm), more flexible lipped wheel in the image above. The 76mm Gumball mold was used to pour our Reflex Formula into for some very limited edition wheels that were not available in stores. The Gumballs have a nice drift at high speed which is great for Downhill and Streetluge. The new BigZigs are a super high traction wheel designed for GS and hard high-speed carving. Ask anyone who has stepped on them - they stick like glue and ride like a dream. Compared to the Gumball, the BigZig contact patch is 6mm wider (50mm vs 56mm shown above) and the hub is more centerset.
Based on the incredible traction and performance of the Lemons (83a), I will be pouring the new BigZigs in 86a on our next run. For such a big wheel, the firmer formulas cut very nicely from side to side which makes them great for fast Hybrids or GS courses that require pumping to accelerate.
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Ridiculous
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On 6/15/2007 Bola
wrote in from
United States
(206.53.nnn.nnn)
slim:
You are ridiculous!
How can you? What were you thinking?
Common man, be more open minded. It is good for the soul.
No offense man.
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update
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On 6/15/2007
slim
wrote in from
United States
(75.61.nnn.nnn)
ok, i was being a bit facetious there - i couldn't get into seismic trucks but i'd ride Dan's wheels anyday and he (and chaput too) possess abilities on a skateboard that I sure don't. But to answer your question, I think many consumers make their purchases from people they relate too. First I knock out buying stuff from people I think are jerks, for whatever reason. Then, because of the kind of skateboarding I've been into and the people I've done it with, I'm naturaly drawn more to, say, Chicken's products than, say, the Carrasco's, even though I think the Carrasco's are great people. None of that matters, I guess, except to remind the vendors in this topic that their own image is a factor in sales, for better or worse. Pure functionality is not the only factor.
I saw Nick on Wednesday and he's looking good. I'll email you.
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Green Ballet
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On 6/15/2007
Jack Smith
wrote in from
United States
(66.215.nnn.nnn)
Slim wrote:
I've already sworn off purchasing green wheels, and products made by guys who seem to think skateboarding is like ballet. If I read any more of this stuff I'll feel compelled to get rid of my slalom setup all together. Geez.
Rich, you're a smart guy, do you really believe Dan thinks skateboarding is like ballet? Sure, he skates in a different way, but if he feels skateboarding is like ballet, wouldn't it make more sense for him to make wheels for "ballet skating"? Last time I checked Seismic was making wheels and trucks that work great for slalom and downhill.
I'll tell you this, I saw Dan skate at Expo '86 in Vancouver, and yes he did his ballet thing, and it took more guts to do it than most of us who post here (me included) come near having.
So do you research other manufacturers/company owners "style" of skateboarding before you buy/user their products?
PS - How's Nick doing?
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an opinion from the oustide
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On 6/15/2007
slim
wrote in from
United States
(75.61.nnn.nnn)
Seems to me that there is nothing more fundamental to the definition of a skateboard than the number of wheels. Over the last 50 years or so, shapes and lengths of boards have changed, the materials they are made out of has fluctuated, trucks have incorporated many different designs, wheel materials/sizes/shapes have changed, bearing material and construction has changed. But there is one thing that has remained constant for 99% of skateboards in use: they have had four wheels.
Everything else has been some kind of gimmick. Something one rides on his ass, or that is sold at costco at christmas time, or has two bicycle wheels or whatever. But "skateboards" have four wheels. I can't imagine why anyone would waste any of their energy wanting to ride something with more wheels in a "skateboard" contest. Ride it on your own time, sure. But when it comes time to compete against fellow "skateboarders," why not stick to a vehicle that has the same number of wheels as the other guys/gals?
The 6-wheel camp reminds me why the slalom scene always feels "wrong" to me. The activity itself is great fun, but the personalities involved are just too much for me to want to deal with. s#@!, I've already sworn off purchasing green wheels, and products made by guys who seem to think skateboarding is like ballet. If I read any more of this stuff I'll feel compelled to get rid of my slalom setup all together. Geez.
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loose trucks
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On 6/15/2007
pusher
wrote in from
United States
(66.174.nnn.nnn)
6 for the price of 4?
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WhichZigs?
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On 6/15/2007
Mile High Mark
wrote in from
United States
(207.174.nnn.nnn)
The ones we have are not the same as the reflex-formula Gumballs that CC released previously. The profile is different, but all three duros that we have appear to be from the same mold.
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big zigs
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On 6/15/2007
bara
wrote in from
United States
(204.78.nnn.nnn)
hey Mark....are the new BZ's shaped differently than the old ones?....i scrub off the graphics when i get wheels, but as far as shape goes, i have some Greens that i got a few months back and some yellows more recently. The yellows are shaped like the 70mm's with the square lip, but the greens have a "thicker" core and taper right up to the edge with no real lip. The greens are also a mm larger and a bit wider....did these wheels change their mould?...what type do you have with the new ones?
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Mile High Skates Updates
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On 6/15/2007
Mile High Mark
wrote in from
United States
(207.174.nnn.nnn)
New arrivals and additions: Retro BigZig wheels in pink/77a, lime/80a, lemon/83a; Crail DH speed trucks in matte black; Never Summer Eclipse and Swift completes and decks; TSG Force III kneepads.
Current promos: Free Mile High Skates t-shirt and Phantom mini-tool with every custom complete; free bearings with the purchase of any Never Summer wheels, and free Mile High Skates t-shirt with any Never Summer deck; free domestic ground shipping on orders over $99.
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McKendry
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On 6/15/2007 Bola
wrote in from
United States
(206.53.nnn.nnn)
Call
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Attn: Vendors! New posting policy in effect.