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| Long Distance Pumping (LDP) (1492 Posts)
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pump efficiency
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On 12/14/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
matze - your sliding story is great. having control over slides, expected or unexpected, makes all the difference between blowing out of a race and hanging on and making really wide offsets - at speed. i envy that skill!
as for pumping efficiency...looong story, tons of theories, personal preferences, so I'll keep my blab short (for now): I find keeping shoulders pointed forward "down the fall line", using chopping motions only for acceleration, and otherwise minimizing upper body motion over long distances (conserving energy) with higher frequency of small pumps, is key to maintaining efficient momentum. Practice with and watch/listen carefully to guys who are actually racing a lot. Dong and Roe swear by the value of Cyberslalom to get your pump skills and your gear figured out.
It's great to see you here! jp
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Matze and Al
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On 12/14/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(142.22.nnn.nnn)
Matze, thanks for posting and welcome to the forum. How wonderful to 'meet' another LDP'er!
Hey Al, those times sound really impressive! I'm scared to see how my times compare once I find someone with a stop watch to time the trap for me.
Great that you actually have a track to do your timed distance skates on. How cool is that!?
I am curious to know how the wider trucks will affect your times.
Two more days of work and then I'm off for two weeks of Xmas holiday. With a bit of luck with the weather I should be able to get some runs in on the trap and on a 1 km section of the bike path that I skate. I shall bravely post my times so long as they aren't shockingly slow....lol
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sidewinder
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On 12/14/2005 peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
cool stuff Al! note originally I tried to break down your 656ft figure to a 176ft time, so it averages slower by a full second or more, your *actual* Trap speed is impressive, and if you're saying you're out of shape!? then guess we'd better start practicin...
i'm equally curious about the sidewinders (curiosity also piqued from your SF posts) and chatted with sector9 a week ago, sounds like they're only a package deal with the "Hydra" board currently, but hoping to work something out. judging from one picture I'd seen, it looked like sidewinders' concept was one elongated metal part with standard bushings, joining two traditional truck hangar/baseplate sets top and bottom...close?
you've got quite a deal of experience with those Al, I'm also intrigued to hear more and see your setup pics of what these are all about. yikes...gotta get back to work!
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Sidewinder trucks...
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On 12/14/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
Al - you are the guy I was talking to on sf about sidewinders, right?
Can you tell us more about your involvement in their development?
Is there anyway to get a hold of a set of them without having to buy the S9 complete?
Nice job on your times. You should post your trap time on the official trap forum record time log. Several pages back there is chart Chris Chaput or somebody put up to convert seconds into mph for 88ft and 176ft.
I'd like to see pics of your set up, Al.
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Trap and sprint times
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On 12/14/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Erin,
I have some updated times from todays riding. I pumped the trap about 12 times and came in between 10.6 secs and 10.3 secs riding the 176ft. both directions on a professional skate track. For the 200 meter I clocked 44.6 secs. The 1k was 4:11 and the 2k 9:27. I rode a homemade 43" LB with 28"WB, 80a Avalons, Bones Reds and custom sidewinders with Indy101 hangers. Soon I'll go back to the wider hangers to see how they affect the race times. Keep me posted when you get a chance to clock some times.
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typo
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On 12/14/2005 matze
wrote in from
Germany
(195.125.nnn.nnn)
Sorry, i mean 92mm Flywheels 72a and not 92a
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improve pumping efficiency
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On 12/13/2005 matze
wrote in from
Germany
(195.125.nnn.nnn)
Hello,
i am new here to this forum and what you all write is very interesting for me. I do this pumping-thing for about one year. My board is a custom made slalom-like deck with my old tracker extracks and some Gumballs. I am experimenting many with the wheel size and weight (and also with the angular momentum) and most time i do short distance pumping. So my experiments are more for short sprints (something about 2km).
In the beginning of pumping i used my old flashbacks 78a. The next improvement was my 80mm kryptos 80a. After that there was a big jump forward with the gumballs 75a and then a little upgrade with the 90mm Flywheels 78a. I tested some 92mm Flywheels 92a too, but they have to much grip and it is nearly impossible to turn.
After a half year of learning i switched back to my kryptos to give them a chance because i used the other wheels for downhill skating and classic luging and because the movement improvement of myself. This was really interesting because the kryptos has not so much grip and the rear wheels began to slide in every turn. With this reason i had improved myself again and now the rear wheels dont slide and i can transform my power better to the road.
(sorry for my bad english)
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the trap and pumping for speed
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On 12/13/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Ok so I found a good spot to run the trap...a section of the old Indy track. I've just got to sweep off of the skate-braking pea gravel that's gotten scattered about and mark off the distance.
I'm also going to measure out a 1 km distance so that I can compare times with Al and any of you other pump addicts that care to share their stats.
Today I pumped loops around this big empty parking lot near my home. I just wanted to get into a groove without having to watch out for bikes and peds. The ipod was a cool addition to my training as it really add to the stoke. I tried out different foot positions, arm movements and types of body motion.
I wonder if those of you more experienced in LDP can offer any training tips? I think sprint training like the Trap will be a good for improving power and of course the longer distances will contribute to endurance. But what about methods to improve pumping efficiency overall?
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more quiver chat
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On 12/13/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Eric thanks for sharing your quiver history and contents. I see that you are also selective and discriminating in your board choices. And of course by now you are famous on some forums for your gorgeous red Swift! LOL
Currently I am also running only six boards with a seventh ( my Landy wood/carbon fibre DH ) dismantled and moth balled in the atic.
I have a Roe for TS and another for GS and I have a Fatboy that can do just about any kind of slalom.
In the longboard category I have the recently aquired Vice-grip and my two much loved LBL's. The first LBL I got was a 60 inch cruiser that I use to skate the seawall bike paths with my pooch, the skate-Pom named (rather fittingly, I thought) "Jamie". This dawg would rather got for a skate than any other outting beside food shopping. He loves to jog along while I cruise and when he tires...about 8 km's into the skate, he takes a free ride nestled comfortably in my arms. It matters not to him whether I push or pump, either way he just lies there like a prince enjoying the view.
The other LBL is an all round commuting board, the Otter. It is 44 inchs and surprising easy to pump in spite of its 180mm R2's. I am running sweet pink 72 mm/78a powerballs on this board which nicely show off the pink/red hibiscus patterned hawaiian fabric on the deck.
The LBL's section of my quiver will be growing soon but I can't let too many cats out of the bag right now......
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My quiver....
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On 12/13/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
Erin I was a skater in the seventies and a little in the eighties.
But I retired and gave my much younger brother my uncle wiggley and my powell peralta.
But after seeing the "Dogtown and Z Boys" documentary I felt very nostalgic and
wanted to recreate that part of my childhood. The documentary showed an old bahne and that got me interested. I bought a Bahne Black Hill slalom board.
But it didn't turn tight like I thought it would. It had camber and a seismic front truck, a traker rt rear truck and cambria wheels. I thought it would be an awesome pumper. But it never felt stable or turny enough for me.
So I got an Original 43 with S6 trucks. Much more room and more stability.
And the ability to turn sharply to avoid people and obstacles. The spring loaded trucks (nothing like seismics) have so much return energy that pumping that big board came naturally. It was the first one I could pump for any distance or up small hills or whatever. Then I got an Original 47, which is much flexier than the 43 and is a great carver, cruiser, pumper.
I traded my Bahne to SteveAZ for a 35" cambered kicktail board.
My next board was my Curve/Subsonic Swift 40 which is a multi purpose cruiser,
carver, bomber, skogger, garage racer. Recently I added a 34" and a 38" kicktailed park boards to use for sliding, parks and ramps.
My next board is to be a medium distance pumper/skogger that can also be used
to run the trap.
That's it. Only six boards so far, but growing.
What boards do you have and how/why did you aquire them. What is each used for, ect?
James you did an excellent description of your quiver and equipment choices on your site. I like how you have pumping decks, pushing decks, ect.
I guess the trap is more of a short distance sprint. The top posted times are all by slalom guys pumping a distance of 44 feet and averaging in the 18 mph range. Chaput pumped 176 feet and also averaged in the 18 mph range.
But he pushed 176 feet at an average speed in the 19mph range.
Prior to that (and still by most) it was thought that pumping would be faster than pushing. Pushing was considered a low gear with pumping being a higher gear. But what of chaput's times?
Which is faster over 176 feet pumping or pushing?
And what set up would any of you use to cross 176 feet (any humanpowered on a skateboard way) in the quickest possible time?
This was discussed a year ago but I think the sphere of knowledge on pumping and push racing has been expanded greatly since then.
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quiver talk
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On 12/13/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Eric there isn't that much to see in terms of my quiver as I keep my rack of boards to seven or eight carefully set up rides. However to reach its current state, my board room has seen over 15 decks come and go!
A few years ago I found myself buying and trying various differentlongboards that were all very well constructed and designed. But without fail the boards just seemed to be too stiff for my light weight. I kept thinking there had to be a ride out there that had some life to it, some movement under my feet as I carved and cruised. Then I discovered LBL and there was no looking back.
When I set foot on my first LBL deck I finally felt the response and life under my Vans that I had been dreaming of. I started selling off other boards and spending more time with LongboardLarry....lol Now my two LBL boards are my most skated boards and there are a few more projects under way in Larry's shop that will add a little more diversity to my small, select quiver.
As for slalom, I did not want to go through the same buying and selling to find the right boards for my style and thankfully, given that slalom board builders are more familiar with customizing for weight and riding style, I have been able to carefully select three different boards for that discipline.
Now long distance pumping has opened the door to some more researching and experimenting. The Vice is a part of the experiment to find a suitable LDP board but I suspect that eventually a custom LBL will win the spot in my quiver for a long distance pumper.
In a few months when the winter of dreaming, designing, working with builders and receiving packages in the mail comes to an end and the skate/slalom season begins in earnest I'll post some pictures of my "perfect quiver".
As for you Eric, what is your collection like and how did you arrive at it? I love to hear about skater's rides and their methods for selecting boards.
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getting Trapped in the Vice Grip...
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On 12/13/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
Erin - thank you for the pics of your vice grip! It looks like an awesome pumper to me. The R2 150's and Grippins seem perfect on there.
I'm sure carver cx's and hot spots would be sweet, too.
I'd very curious to see a current quiver pic of yours Erin, last time I saw your quiver was over a year ago and I think you've added quite a bit since then. Are you still waiting for a slalom deck from Roe?
Mr. Peters - thanks for all the set up tips! I envy your quiver. I'm working on a similar idea; a short distance pumper/slalom set up, a middle/long distance skumper/skumper/skogger and a pushing/skogging/rain set up among others.
As for the trap if you scroll back through the old posts here in the pumping forum, you'll come to Chaput's posts about the trap, his times and strategies.
You'll also find the discussion that lead to the idea of the trap that took place between steve from AZ, Chris Yandall and Chris Chaput. I think you'll find it interesting. - Eric
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sprints & distance
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On 12/13/2005 peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
Hey Al, your time's pretty decent when you break it down to the 176-foot Trap distance - 11.27sec? per rough calculation. Plus the 25+" wheelbase takes longer for acceleration and I've no idea how the sidewinders work for speed, but I'd gamble that for these sprints, a shorter wheelbase and tighter trucks might knock your time down another notch. Whereas on long distance IMHO its better to have that 25+ wheelbase, a longer stride that matches the longer course. Then its a game of stamina, keeping as high kph as possible over a long duration. Not sure about urethane grooves except for benefits on wet pavement, but assuming the course is smooth, notice a lot of the top dogs in Cyber/Trap are running 84a+ durometers. I run 86f/82r most the time.
The tricky part about doing this worldwide is that courses may vary with slight incline/decline, and variance increases with distance. That's why until marathons are run in a controlled velodrome-type track, the Trap or Cyber run in both directions are the best way to assure our times are true. The 26-milers we've run over the past few years in Seattle are timed professionally -- but in a pure racing vein, I think they'd have to be challenged on the same course, given the terrain is not 100% flat, even if we consider decline cancels out incline, or some such equation. Also, there's a few traffic lights on that course unfortunately, which are not controlled for the event, so that can add another 2 minutes or so cumulatively. Not good for a "pure" distance time. Still, for 26 miles I'd choose the scenery of the great outdoors to 100 laps in a velodrome!
Map out the 'specs', then hit the Trap! And try out Cyber if you have some cones, just beware the slalom addiction...
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Sprints
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On 12/13/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Hi everyone! I'm glad the posts have turned somewhat towards sprinting because I just clocked some speeds last Sunday and wanted to see if they were fast or not. Actually, I'm just getting back into shape right now and so I think they might be somewhat slow, in comparison to folks who are pumping hard everyday. I clocked 200 meters at 43.6 secs. In the past I think I've done this in 42secs. 200 meters is = to 656 ft. For the 2k I pumped it in about 9mins 30secs, but I wasn't going all out. I was using a 43" longboard, 25" WB, Bones reds and customized Sidewinders with Indy 101 hangers. I think now if I lengthen the WB, use better bearings, a 75mm wheel with harder durometer, and a 7" hanger, I should be able to speed things up. Any other ideas? What about grooving the urethane in the wheels to get more push?
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looking for the 'trap'
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On 12/12/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Ok, you guys have got me pretty keen on practicing the trap. I'm going to search around for just the right area of pavement to measure out this course. I can't imagine coming close to the speeds the are being discussed here but it will be fun to just see if I can improve my personal bests over time.
I hope to experiment with both my slalom boards and my recently set up LDP board. Should be fun!
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trap and cyber
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On 12/12/2005 peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
Trapmaster Steve, great to hear from you. I was just replying to Eric on SF about the Trap so I'm going to recycle a bit, and pose my opinion on this. I'm sure Chaput's got a game plan for this one...would like to hear it!
Apparently Chaput has an unofficial top speed on the 176 footer. If I understand the race specs correctly, I would expect the fastest mph times to come from the shortest distance of 44 feet, since its an average time over the distance, with an unlimited push start distance -- implying that a racer is going to reach an apex at some point during that short distance. Clocking an average 18+ mph for 44 feet is incredible, so maintaining that up for 88 or 176 feet would be even more phenomenal.
My theory is that you'd max out your push speed on the entrance (unlimited), then for the duration of the timed area, gain just a little more acceleration on the pump. Over marathon distances, I've found that pushing is only more efficient for inclines.
I think Cyber is a good preliminary indication of where you might "fit" in this game, and I'm still just breaking the 10-second barrier. The Trap and Cyber are really a sprint, whereas LDP is an exercise in endurance. But I like to round it out and hit sprints as hard as possible as well. As with Cyber I'm convinced the most important thing is getting your GROOVE on right from the starting box, and picking up that rhythm all the way through the course. That's something I've learned from watching Dong and Jackman in action here in practice and events. Lucky to have that kind of inspiration and kick in the @ss on a weekly/monthly basis!
One thing I'd like to suggest for the Trap Steve, is that whenever in doubt on the flatness of the course, you could add to the specs that it must be run in both directions and averaged (as in Cyber) particularly important on the 176-footer, to ensure accurate times and top speed measurement.
Given this is something we can do in a DRY parking garage in the Northwest, I'm gonna go hit it!
And Munchh, thank you for the comments on the site, its great to see people 'skumping' all round the world. ...and that's a damn impressive quiver you've built up as well!
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Running "The Trap"
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On 12/12/2005
Steve "TrapMaster" in AZ
wrote in from
United States
(192.175.nnn.nnn)
Peters, Munchh, Erin, Airin, Eric and everyone considering running The Trap...
DO IT!
I'm sorry that as originator of this little contest that I haven't been more involved. Becoming a Dad for the first time will do that to you...unless you're Kenny and then you win a W.C. I do have some suggestions when going for sheer speed under ANY means of personal, natural locomotion:
-Keep both the Trap area and the approach FLAT. You can hit un-even terrain after the trap exit point.
-PLEASE, PLEASE run either the 88' or 176' course! The 44' course is just too short to get accurate times, and will be phased-out in future contests.
-Wear you saftey gear! It's amazing what happens when that R.wheel runs over your push foot at speed.
-Post your times on The Trap and comment here on the Pumping forum. Remember, The Trap is Pump, Skog, Push or any combo thereof...
How fast can you go? Let us Know!
-=S=-
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Peters pipper pumping Peters!
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On 12/10/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.132.nnn.nnn)
Man!
Just been looking at your site, it all makes alot more sence now, but 12 miles man, thats dedication.
You got alot of cool info on there, the other vids make things alot clearer, the elbow thing is that a better motion than the slalom movement, its like your rollin along, cant wait to give it a go and as soon as my brother in-law is off crutches he wants me to set up one of his decks so he can give it a go, so looks like i'll have some company.
Nice one, scumpings going global.
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revenge & CX
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On 12/9/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
Erin, first impression on the Revenges... amazing for cranking downhill carves!! The trucks have a very positive stopping point at max carve, minimal need for riser.
Although for LDP, initial instinct is to stay with CX's. Revenges' turning action pivots inward toward the deck - like an Original truck - whereas Carvers and RTR's swivel on a plane more horizontal with the deck, allowing an easier lateral pump. This is really preliminary impression though, luckily with the dry weather I get to test 'em out at the Velodrome tomorrow! If they still feel weird for flatlanding, I'll mount the back+front identical for a pure carving deck, they seem perfectly suited for that.
Eric, would like to discuss the Trap...gotta get some setups dialed tonite and will be doing some fast flatlanding tomorrow, so will have more to chew on soon. Sounds like you've got great ideas on the right setup! My medium distance board is more like Erin's Vice... its a LibTech 41" with 25" wheelbase and real stiff, excellent hill climber but the stiffness gets tiring when you're going past the 5-mile marker.
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LDP trucks - the new kid on the block
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On 12/9/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Always some other component to wonder about. Good thing that skateboards aren't as complicated as, say, car engines....lol
So trucks are on the radar now. James has got me thinking I'd like to try his top LDP truck of 2005, the Carver CX. But then along comes the Revenge trucks getting good reviews from skaters but the new kid on the block when it comes to LDP.
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hmmm?
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On 12/9/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.132.nnn.nnn)
Has anyone got info on when wedging and making nose and tail diffrent hights, is it best to have deck leaning towards the nose, tail or flat???
Whats the best for a good pump???
Cheers, Steve.
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Erin
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On 12/9/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.140.nnn.nnn)
Yeah, they could have told me how uncomfotable it was gonna be after, gits!
I've been flipping the hangers on my RII's, for longer more stable carves for a while, befroe i started wedging i did just the rear truck, but im, gonna try wedging now, gives me somthing to do while i'm stuck in. Do you upgrade the bushings? I've never changed the yellows on the RII's as my local shop holds mainly short board equipment so i did try some indy's, but just used them as top bushings as all 4 come as cones, but they are a good urethane, they also do 'deluxe carpbuster tackand supply supercrush' which i've been using a while, cant find Khiro's over here.
Anyhow, i've always been a little put off by loose trucks, my mate runs his RII's at a rattle, which scared the life out of me when i had a go, dont know whether its my 13.5st 5'8" frame but i like to feel the resistance in the bushings one edge to the other, but with a good return, need to find some new rubbers i think.
P.S. Think you would like my 36 cruiser shape for pumping?
Click here for link
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today's Vice-grip skate
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On 12/8/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
This time of year in Vancouver you have to sneak in a skate the moment the pavement shows the slightest hint of drying. Today was one of those days. By 10 am I was out on the seawall giving the Vice a workout. The board behaved quite politely.
If I was to get really picky I'd say I would still like a little more room at the nose. But with the wheelbase already at 26 inches ( I measured it to be sure and was surprised to find it less than I had first estimated ) I wouldn't really want to move the trucks back much more. In fact the wb felt really quite good.
The more stiff deck is definitely an advantage as it seems more power can be transfered to the board with stiffer flex. That said, a bit of 'pop', as James describes it, is a welcome feature in a LDP deck as well. For that, this deck could do to have just a touch more flex for my body weight.
And all in all it is good to have some width under those pumping pistons. It wouldn't do to go much more narrow than the Vice for LDP applications. I felt Jame's LBL deck, for example, had a lot of board to work with when pumping. A board that is too streamlined just doesn't seem to have the omphf necessary for pumping.
As for the trucks, to be honest, and probably because I have had quite a few years of experience on 180 mm trucks, the 150's sometimes feels a little tippy and the odd overexuberant set of pumps often had one of the front wheels off the tarmac. But I'm sure in time I'll become more in tune with these trucks.
I miss the power on the uphills that the wider trucks provide but on the flats the cadence of the 150's seems just right.
Well now I dont' have many excuses - its time to really work on pumping technique! I'll be working on various stances and trying to make the pumps as efficient as possible. Right now I still feel pretty slow and at times awkward going long distances on the board but I'm hoping the speed and grace will come as my technique improves.
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wedged trucks
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On 12/8/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
'ouch' munchh! hope the recovery speed along!
Yeah I do wedge the Randals depending on the application. For example I run my 180's wedged on the front of my DH...go figure. For me its a case of trial and error. If a board runs more the way I like it to with the hardware modified I go for it.
I have the 180 R2's wedged on my 44 inch LBL cruiser but not on my 60 inch LBL. So it just depends what type of skating I intend to do on a particular board as to whether I'll wedge the trucks or not.
Along the same lines, I often flip the hangers on the R2's. I just really like the how the turns are 'smoothed out' that way.
As for loose, for the front truck, I like to run the Randals loose. Again even my speedboard has relatively loose trucks with soft bushings. I have always enjoyed skateboards the feel 'alive'under my feet hence the loose trucks and soft bushing combo.
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Nice looker Erin.
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On 12/8/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.132.nnn.nnn)
Lookin good Erin, i've never wedged RII's though, i always wondered if you would wedge them opposite from standard geometry trucks, looks like i'm learning again, can you still run them loose? Or are they responsive enough not to?
Will be trying a few diffrent setups as soon as the weather sorts its self out and i get these splints out of my nose.
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How to Pump