|
|
|
| Home Made Boards (6188 Posts)
|
| Topic |
Home Made Boards |
|
my bad
|
|
On 9/19/2005 shapeshifter
wrote in from
United States
(198.160.nnn.nnn)
oops... did i say oak! i meant maple!!! sorry i didn't mean to do that to you ebasil.
anyway i've read somewhere that the modulus of rupture (strength) of oak is roughly 15,200 psi at a moisture content of 12% maple is 15,800. modulus of elasticity (stiffness) of oak is around 1.75 million psi hard maple is 1.83 million. it would be a safe bet when combining the two that you should have a pretty stiff woody.
when combining woods, as herbn mentions, i too have an afinity for combining the softer more flexible species with the hardwoods to add flexibility sometimes compensating for their shortcoming with shape.
mor for white ash is 15,000; black is 12,600; green is 14,100. moe for white ash, 1.74; black ash, 1.60; green ash, 1.66 million psi. of course the extreme would be to employ red elm because it seems to want to bend without breaking.
maple is naturally harder than oak with a strong consistent grain appearance. Because of it's closed grained and hard fiber, it is harder to stain than oak. the smooth flow of oak grain has a three dimensional warmth it takes to finishing stains more readily.
|
|
|
|
|
oak veneer
|
|
On 9/19/2005 EBasil
wrote in from
United States
(63.206.nnn.nnn)
Oak veneer from Ted? Ted of Roarockit? How thick is the veneer?
We're about to order another batch of pre-cuts for a class.
Shapeshifter, have you got insight or opinions on how oak and maple would interface or perform if lammed together in the Roarockit pin shape using TBIII? I'd love to be able to offer a few options to the builders.
|
|
|
|
|
yeah, it hurt a bit
|
|
On 9/18/2005 shapeshifter
wrote in from
United States
(24.148.nnn.nnn)
on top of that somewhere along the way customs got the idea that the contents of the package was worth $800 so it too some doing to remove some €400 they wanted to tag on the bill...
one of the best arguments for working in biocomposites is that it can be built up, worked down, built up again, then readjusted if need be. twists can be removed without removing material and material can be added on wherever too much has been removed. try doing that with polyurethane foam. this is the perfect material for 3d concepts. this process can be applied to cores and molds.
once an application of a layer that will chemically morph as it takes hydrogen from the air and turns to a rock like shell surrounding the inner core it will be impervious to liquids rendering it less workable. though it could still be worked down and built up again it will not adjustable anymore unless this layer is removed (yikes!). though i plan to apply a layer of s-glass over the whole assembly, i'm even thinking that this outer shell should be able to replace those outer layers altogether. delving into archaic methods rarely practiced today i'm even thinking of making my own version of casein that renders the inner layers even more impervious to liquids.
creating new ways of doing things isn't for the feint of heart. every part of the development cycle has to experienced. tools have to be produced and solutions to problems never before experienced have to be resolved. being able to ascertain issues before they come along is all a part of thinking things through then rethinking it again.
|
|
|
|
|
ouch!
|
|
On 9/18/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
European Union
(86.137.nnn.nnn)
OUCH!!
it stinks, I was looking at importing pressed blank decks, £125 for 20 blanks, £160 shipping, then the chance of customs duty, theres no getting a bargin at the moment...........!
|
|
|
|
|
accross the pond...
|
|
On 9/18/2005 shapeshifter
wrote in from
United States
(24.148.nnn.nnn)
don't have to tell me about shipping, i gave away a set of trucks worth $45 (picked em up for $33) and paid over $60 to ship them to europe!
|
|
|
|
|
vacuum
|
|
On 9/18/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
European Union
(86.137.nnn.nnn)
As soon as i've got the money for a deck i made a friend, i'm gonna get a kit from Ted, end of the week should be, i feel its a good place to start, 'keep it simple stupid' you know?
oak veneer, what i wouldn't give, thats just a bit special.
Teds a cool guy, hope i've not done his head in too much!!
So my aim is set, put a 36" pine deck on e-bay, sell another ply deck if i can and find some veneer......soon i hope.
|
|
|
|
|
galaxies of wood
|
|
On 9/18/2005 shapeshifter
wrote in from
United States
(24.148.nnn.nnn)
yeah, i'm feelin' it brother. wood does have some killer advantages all its own. i plan to explore this with the lifetime supply of oak veneer i picked up from ted.
to answer your question... to be honest every one of the boards i've built since 2001 required a vacuum bag to execute the project.
|
|
|
|
|
Shapeshifter
|
|
On 9/18/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
European Union
(86.137.nnn.nnn)
Coming from you thats a big comp..
Now i get it, you understand how i see wood, i'm always amazed how huch more grain effects you get on birch ply, just from sanding it down, the grain widens and shines (which is why i prefer clear finnish), if you can get the birds eye birch the effect is....well the only thing i've seen the same is pictures from the hubble telescope of 'nebulas' Click here for link this isnt the best one, but you get the idea?
I've got an 28" 70's deck that i think is made of ash, its similar to some that i have, but that has bottom with a spine down the centre, it then angles away to the rails and you see so many layers of grain, it also has 2x mahogony inlays front to back and a strainge constucted kick? Its really tactile, really good looking!!
So what do you know of vacuum bagging, you must have looked into it?
|
|
|
|
|
shapely bottoms...
|
|
On 9/18/2005 shapeshifter
wrote in from
United States
(24.148.nnn.nnn)
okay, now i like what i'm seein' contouring the bottom of the deck is where it all begins. so much personality can be derived from shaping from this side but it would definitely be advantageous to add glass when doing so depending on flexibility and material strength. whenever working the bottom of the decks i try to blend in the transition between the center beam the skinnier sections an protrusions at the rails. routing out just enough so that the transitions could be worked down with hand tools. because it has more support in this manner there is less of a likelihood of cracks starting anywhere there's a sharp andgle, as mentioned earlier, you also get a pretty cool effect because it brings out more of the grain; makes for easier glassing too. something that wont weaken the deck but provide some added comfort is to round down the edges a little bit more from the top where the rails are blending it to square edges at the nose and tail sections. this is one of the easiest least intrusive exploration into top surface contours. if you want to get a little more adventurous try adding a 4 mm layer (use a ply to have the ring effect when working it) to the top and work down whatever wherever you think would give you the best effect. this way you could do concaves, "w's", flowing ridgelines, crescent cuts or whotnot. all of my decks have some kind of ergonomic deck-top feature. this is why i'm shapeshifter.
|
|
|
|
|
solid link
|
|
On 9/18/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
European Union
(86.132.nnn.nnn)
Shifter, try this link, seems to be working, this page of pics shows mostly pine and oak decks.
Munchh. Click here for link
|
|
|
|
|
good wood
|
|
On 9/18/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
European Union
(86.132.nnn.nnn)
Shifter, yeah i've spoken to them, but i'm looking for 1.5mm/1/16" veneer, to use with the Roarockit system (have you used vacuum bagging?), i need to have a supply over here as although Ted does supply uncut sheets, its going to be too costly to do, i spose the 3mm birch ply that Lush Longboards do would be ok to start withClick here for link, but its still not cheap.
I'll get there in the end, the pine and oak decks i've been doing are my twist on the 'Sims' 36" and 44" decks from the late 70's, they dont have much flex and are just cruiser/bombers really, the routing i give the underneath makes them lighter than they look, if i drop inlays into them across the grain, it makes the chance of them splitting less likely (this was somthing they did with the early solid pine boogie/body boards), if you mail me, i'll send you a couple of pics, my site is running real slow, got to get a new one!!
|
|
|
|
|
good wood
|
|
On 9/18/2005 shapeshifter
wrote in from
United States
(24.148.nnn.nnn)
i didn't realize you were working in pine. i used to do this when test modeling my shapes but it wouldn't last long as a production piece. don't know if you realize this but most people use 4 mm birch plywood to build out a board since it is already plied you can eliminate some steps in the process and its generally easy to get the kind of bends you may be trying to attain. i see that it is available at Mid-Sussex Timber. if that isn't what you're looking for you can do a google search on "specialty wood sussex uk" as i did and find something more desirable locally. you can also give cabinet makers a call and ask them if there was a source for specialty woods in your area, someone should know a thing or two once they find out what your intentions are. don't eliminate other types of wood such as ash or spruce like herbn does (i've used these too from time to time) as components in your layup because they could add different qualities to your final product. another thing you can also do is create your own vertical laminates from thicker lumber, the possibilities are endless.
carbon is available in a variety of weaves including linear and we've employed a multitude of thicknesses and combinations depending on the properties we wanted. it can be quite a fickle material because it could also give too much spring if applied in certain configurations as herbn posted it could come out a feeling little weird. a cool trick is to put a surface ply of a paperbacked veneer facing over the carbon to cover up the blackened cloth texture; this adds quite a bit of that natural aesthetic quality to the finished product.
|
|
|
|
|
solids
|
|
On 9/18/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
European Union
(86.137.nnn.nnn)
Thanks for havin a look Shifter, i recon the solid pine decks are my best work yet, i ride one myself.
I'm just getting fed up with hearing 'theres no call for it'?
So what am I, irrelevent?
I've got two guys phoning me back, but i'm not gonna hold my breath. All the wood mongers over here dont seem to get the point, after two sheets of birch ply that turned out to be birch 'face' ply, i've just got to make my own.
Anyhow, my brother fabricates carbon componants at his job, but seems to think none of it would be usefull, he also makes surfboards, so knows the prosseses pretty well,
do you lot get it as sheets like glass fibre over there?
cheers, Munchh.
|
|
|
|
|
source error...
|
|
On 9/17/2005 shapeshifter
wrote in from
United States
(24.148.nnn.nnn)
sorry i can't help you suss out a source for plies there munchh. nice quality work you're producing there. i wouldn't worry about the technologies involved with most of our posts here, 90% of manufactured boards are produced today ard of laminated wood anyway.
************************** ***
good question jestah, i took a little walkabout to the philippines over the summer to see what it would take to set up a bamboo processing facility in the land of my parents but left a little dismayed. even though that is where the raw materials are originated from the difficult task of creating a workable product is usually accomplished in china. whenever there's a need to use the processed bamboo veneers it would then need to be shipped back to the philippines from china.
the steps of taking bamboo from its tubular form to a workable flat panel involves a hot acid bath kiln drying cutting culms then reassembling the strips to a sheet of linear strips (removing the softest inner fibers and which is then trimmed down to veneer. another technique is to lathe off sheets of veneer working deeper down the layers after soaking the culm in the acid bath.
at the moment i get my bamboo from a dealer in san francisco here in the usa. it is very expensive but i know fatboy sources his stuff directly from asia and i just might see what price i can get from him one day. i still haven't given up on the possibility of processing it from the raw material someday but for now i have to get it where i can.
*****************************
now i remember that you talked about using carbon rods herbn. yeah, using carbon correctly in a layup generally adds spring and lightness to an assembly.
i too noticed how helpful the layers of a ply reveals the consistency of your shape as you come down the layers like the rings of a tree. sometimes i even layer my foam so that i can more accurately guage my progress on the more complex shapes. otherwise it would be difficult to assess your progress with the monotone of a single layer of foam.
**************************** *
i feel pretty good right now because tonight i was able to formulated a strategy of "petrifying" the outer layers of a organic fiber to waterproof by utilizing the chemical interactions between the cellulose and other natural derived materials. this would allow me to stiffen and seal this type of constructed core preventing the deep penetration of epoxy thereby preventing the possibility of additional weight on the finished product. previously i had conceptualize incorporating cellulose acitate fibers into into the slurry and triggering it with acetone to melt it into the surrounding fibers once it had been solidified into its shape. this new idea is even more sublime and should add a more predictable amount of structural rigidity.
one of the biggest hurdles faced when working with this type of fabrication is how cellulose reacts to liquids. water is an essential element to the production but at the same time water is its worst enemy (anybody remember bonite). i really doubt if this type of fabrication has potential in the fabrication of surfboards but figure that the dryer environments of skateboard usage should allow it to be less suseptible to exposure to liquids. it's all just alchemy really.
|
|
|
|
|
carbon and organic foam
|
|
On 9/17/2005 herbn
wrote in from
United States
(64.12.nnn.nnn)
I've done more than just this basic carbon layup, but i was showing a very obvious result of what carbon does. Most of my past projects were planned with carbon in mind,this was a rather (kind of) scientific proof,a board that was perfectly ridable having carbon added to it,and what did it do? it seemed faster but there are a lot of variables there(exTail/head wind ect)the bouncyness of the board drop,is very clear,it is a bit annoying at the same time too. I am definitely gonna make some hollow birch structures that will be filled with v-grain balsa,real soon.
|
|
|
|
|
Got Bamboo?
|
|
On 9/17/2005 jestah
wrote in from
New Zealand
(210.86.nnn.nnn)
Giday Shifter
"now that the economics of oil based products and the shortage of carbon available for builds come into our attention i've chosen to explore options into the materials we employ"
Its soo true and im stoked that others are looking at other renewable sorces. Im very interested in making decks from bamboo but where would one start to look for bamboo? are you milling your own raw bamboo? i have rang arond flooring shops but nothing i can use... could you give me any tips?
thanks
Jestah
|
|
|
|
|
veneers
|
|
On 9/17/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
European Union
(86.137.nnn.nnn)
Hi, anyone in the U.K. know of a good supplier of 1.5mm maple or birch? (preferably sussex area)
You lot on here are so far beyond what i am doing, i feel a bit daft posting, but i gotta start somewhere!!
Click here for link
check out how far along the evolutionary ladder i have got if you have a minute....
cheers, Munchh.
|
|
|
|
|
carbon nation
|
|
On 9/17/2005 shapeshifter
wrote in from
United States
(24.148.nnn.nnn)
thanks bean-a-reano. i'm just exploring the possibilities... it's really my only escape as my wife decided that this is the year to remodel our house and it's all i can do to maintain some semblance of insanity.
sounds like you're just entering the world of carbon composite herbn. it an amazing element. the stiffness derived from such a slippery substance is amazing when compared to glass. in fact it almost seems that this quality is too much for some of my projects. in a one dimensinal application such as the skin it's qualities can hardly be surpassed but when within it's used in a three dimensional structure such as when it makes up the core, it is less forgiving. i even have a piece of foam carbon which i was thinking of using for a core but it seems like it would too much like a ceramic when accomplished even though i haven't quite tried this yet. when applied to 3d elements such as a structured core the carbon shows its true nature and again it is far too stiff causing me to relent and opt for s-glass for its forgiveness and flexibility. every time i tried to use carbon in this manner the outcome would be a dead log that refuses to flex. it would seem that it would have to be to far to weak to maintain a rigid support for the skin before it would achieve the flexibility desired.
i wouldn't say that i'm really trying to make each board perform exactly the same but it's more of an attempt to control the components that make up the deck so that i can build with more predictability. depending on which way a foam core is layed there will be some diffence between the compression of the the top and on the bottom. this will affect the interaction between each side and the skins as which has an effect interaction between the core and the skin. i wonder how many people take this into consideration when working with foam.
now that the economics of oil based products and the shortage of carbon available for builds come into our attention i've chosen to explore options into the materials we employ. after building a variety of very functional products i could just be secure in the accomplishment and choose to just replicate this success. but why not instead explore other possibilities. sure, it isn't the status quo but repeating success is no way to achieve a breakthrough. i know what i can do with the present paradigm (oh no, that word again) but where is the sense of adventure there.
there's no doubt that i will continue to build with carbon, glass, foam, and wood because i think there are still more possibilities yet to be explored with these materials. if i can build a race board that wins races or just a cruise deck that is a pleasurable ride or even one that is the best of both worlds then i am closer to the ultimate goal; that of one that would even be applicable for that and other practices such as in parks and pools. some consider that i may have already accomplished this with my contoured decks that have hollow cores. that's yet to be proven and so the exploration continues.
|
|
|
|
|
adding carbon
|
|
On 9/16/2005 herbn
wrote in from
United States
(64.12.nnn.nnn)
i took my current board ,after riding it for a few days, and added a patch of carbon to the bottom,a partial layer 6.o x 20.0 inches. This is a not riding change, when i drop the board onto its wheels from the height of my trunk, it is much more likely to bounce and flip instead of just sitting there, much higher resilience,i noticed this after feeling as if the board had gotten faster on my daily carve to my car from my store,a 20mph carving run on a busy street.
|
|
|
|
|
identical boards
|
|
On 9/16/2005 herbn
wrote in from
United States
(64.12.nnn.nnn)
why? not i a critical why but perhaps you place too much emphasis on this, plus you seem to experiment so much with such a great number of creative(nicespeak for bizarre) materials,you hardly seem to be looking for the same characteristics,board after board. Besides , a slightly different grain isn't gonna ruin a good design,sure a drasticly change in the wood grain may make things a bit flexier, but you can always reinforce, or build another,it's not gonna happen that much. Lately, partially through laziness ,i really like what i can do with birch multiply, i used to swear by vLam with ash and spruce,and decurative walnut stingers. My latest board developments where stumbled on accidentally,i routed to deep,and had to reinforce the deck(on top) which i sanded and blended ,i really like the way this looks,topographic or like the rings of a tree. Evolutionary not revolutionary.
|
|
|
|
|
Shapes keep shifting
|
|
On 9/15/2005 bean-a-reano
wrote in from
United States
(216.89.nnn.nnn)
Mr. Shifter, That is one of the first posts I understood, atleast 90% of. Sounds like you are on a journey of sorts to find the "perfect" board. Thank you for the informative post, things seem clearer.
|
|
|
|
|
organic foam
|
|
On 9/15/2005 shapeshifter
wrote in from
United States
(24.148.nnn.nnn)
On 9/15/2005 herbn wrote in from United States (64.12.xxx.xxx)
if past posts repeat if you can get the shifty one to post in earthspeak ,it may turn out to be some sort of dehydrated stall (stale?*) bread or something truely bizarre like that."
* edit
...exactly!
|
|
|
|
|
this sort ation... number 1
|
|
On 9/15/2005 shapeshifter
wrote in from
United States
(24.148.nnn.nnn)
hey now yann0, no problem...
...i guess i started out this exploration through attempting to control flex through shape. the contoured decks i started shaping back in 2001 brought me to understand the limitations of wood when it is solid and when it is laminated. the grain structure of solid wood is limited in that each deck would be different by nature and unless one is able to choose their materials from an unlimited source of lumber it would be difficult to replicate the outcome each time. the best we can do is laminate and we get closer to the goal by laminating several plies to "correct" the variations in the grain from stem to stern. at the same time the adhesive in the lamination adds its own features in strength and flexibility. this solution brought me closer to a solution but far from perfection.
by employing foam to add body to the structure we provide a lighter medium easily worked to shape but still having variations in densities as you work through its depth. it also is an ecological nightmare in production and with the waste material created throughout the process of manufacture on through shaping the material. laminating foam is something i do from time to time and this has offered some opportunities for experimentation. blowing foam gives the core a lot more character especially when it has a skin.
so i tried by working with what i thought was a perfect material, bamboo, because it is a fiber as opposed to a granular wood when i realized that when processing bamboo into a workable (flat) medium the segments were not controllable across the ply. you see, depending on what depth the fiber was removed from the culm has a huge affect on the structure of that section of the ply and this is always different across the ply. close but no cigar.
i then attempted to side step this shortcoming by removing the core structure from the equation with the hollow deck but discovered that for better or worse i had created another creature altogether. this type of construction provides vertical almost i-beam like structures (5 of them) within comparable to synetic structures occurring in nature. the four empty areas that run the length of the deck brought many features to the structure over and above the lightness it provided. with a hollow deck almost total reliance on depth of the skin and the subsequent empty areas to control the flex is the key to its flexural functionality. the grain or fibre structure of the skin still has a major effect. composites became the predominant material in the project and though this structure is amazing and on going exploration should expand the possibilities, i still yearned for a simpler more natural solution.
enter biocomposites: while in the middle of recreating yet another version of the hollow solution by building from the inside out after having done so from the outside in, i started playing with recycled materials ranging from coir (coconut husk) to paper as well as items that were harvested. while processing the materials i found that bacteria had its place in breaking down the materials. this led me to envision how by further exploitation of the living material it would be possible to enhance the binding properties of the cellulous and so attempted to encouraged the the bacterial propagation. if given the opportunity the living material would attack the cellulous so i provided another source of nourishment. it's all about timing really too early and you are ok with less adhesion but leave it feeding too long and you have soup, a very smelly primordial soup. while the bacterial is feeding one of the byproducts is carbon dioxide and you get a little bit of air in the mix.
at the molecular level cellulose is a polymer built up by linking together in a linear fashion with glucose monomers. extremely hydrophilic and therefore while forming, the fibers would be interconnected by a whole series of water droplets. The free surfaces of these water droplets would each have a negative radius of curvature and would therefore create internal negative pressure tending to hold the fibers together. while drying, all the interconnecting water droplets would start to shrink, and as they did so the free surface radii of curvature would get smaller and smaller, exerting larger and larger tensions, pulling the fibers close and closer together. microscopic voids are created where the water once was. fascinating stuff really, because by understanding this one can formulate strategies for controlling the form to fit the function.
continued below
|
|
|
|
|
this sort ation... number 2
|
|
On 9/15/2005 shapeshifter
wrote in from
United States
(24.148.nnn.nnn)
(continued from above)
the earliest polynesians made clothes out of bark, the ancient chinese used a sort of paper armor because it was light and it could absorb impact and to some extent deflect arrows. today we ship huge high end technical equipment in structures completely or mostly made of corrugated paper. in addition there are now also biopolymers sourced from replenishable sources available for industrial applications from plywood to medicine.
as i came through this experience considerations of how working with this material in its various forms could have advantages to one who doesn't want to create pollution or work in it. funny thing is that by recycling they would be in a way be working with what could potentially be pollution. another consideration is the economic impact on one invests on the materials one works with and the tools required to work it. different tools and a whole other set of abilities is involved when working in cellulous fiber. other issues have yet to be address so this process is ongoing.
in essence i have been somewhat successful in my continual search to find a way to take the simple act of constructing what would in its simplest form be a flat platform of solid wood and make it a most arduous task. sounds crazy doesn’t it?
|
|
|
|
|
my latest
|
|
On 9/15/2005 herbn
wrote in from
United States
(64.12.nnn.nnn)
using standard 5/8 multi ply ,i'm making some fairly unique dropped boards,add pieces to the ends(on top) with epoxy i can then route out very "deep pockets" or "hot pockets" as i've become quite fond of refering to this feature on my boards. I sand the hell out of them beveling the addons in all directions,like wedge tails,combined with the hollowing out from underneath I seem to add very little weight and a very thick area is left just around the inner truck mounting holes,which should raise the torsional stiffness in this weakest of areas.
|
|
|
|
|
