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| Skateboarding Law (490 Posts)
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Enough Already
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On 12/4/2003 Sketchmaster
wrote in from
(4.22.nnn.nnn)
Arab: I have to admit that there'e no way I'm going to read your entire last post. You did greatly miss my distinctions of public versus private. The personal insults? Totally lame. K-LEE and I already bowed out on this, anyway.
Someone else threw something in about Air Force One. You evidently don't grasp the arguement I was making with K-Lee.
Putting AF1 on my schedule raises national security issues and encumbers the aircraft against its intended purpose. Skating a runoff ditch does not impair the flow of water as intended by the design engineers.
RE: Telling cops to go away: I'm not in any way intoning that they necessarily will go away. You all missed that, didn't you? They might. They probably won't. What I was getting at is legal posturing. If the police are told to stop harassing you and the pertinent issues are raised to the point that the officers cannot claim ignorance of the given jurisdictional issues then you may have yourself a solid harassment case. I haven't pulled one of these off, yet, but I know people who have. What I can claim is to have walked out of court with all charges dropped with prejudice in a case where I was facing $1400 in fines.
Chewning: I agree that there is great value in a lot of the posts here that are not law related. I just believe that they belong in a different forum so arguments like this one don't arise. It's totally non productive. The best use of this page is objectivity. I got caught up in a thread of subjectivity that I can't even remember who started. K-LEE, Arab, and I have wasted plenty of people's time and web resources and I will attempt to bow out a second time. If someone really feels the need to burn me then do so but make sure you're actually responding to something I said and not just some lame extrapolation that has nothing to do with my intent.
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My taxes
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On 12/4/2003 couldn't resist
wrote in from
(199.41.nnn.nnn)
Excuse me, Mr President sir,
My taxes paid for your airplane and pay the salaries of the flight crew. Me & my friends wanna skate KONA this weekend so I need you to send over Air Force One to pick us up and fly us over. Don't worry, we'll return it just like we found it. Thanks.
and speaking of VA Beach. Virginia Beach Police will always have a place in skateboarding lore; see: Rogowski, Mark. The cop that Gator punched is probably the Chief or Mayor by now which is probably why their hard-asses
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All types of posts are needed.
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On 12/4/2003
Pat Chewning
wrote in from
(161.114.nnn.nnn)
I really enjoy the "story" type posts of run-ins with the law, the social commentary posts about what you should/could do, and the dry, humorless informative posts about the law (like mine). I think all of them add to the discussion.
-- Pat
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You Cops, Just Go Away
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On 12/4/2003
Arab
wrote in from
(24.24.nnn.nnn)
Oh....... Distinction between Public and Private. I'm sorry.
Thats great that your daddy was a Cop and you know everything about them, How many times have you had a gun pointed at your face for skateboarding?
Did you miss my distinction between public and private?, I gave examples of both, the first being the story at the Euclid U where the cop arrested 9 of us for skateboarding on public property, Later about private pools I skated and got arrested at.
I wish it was only so easy to tell a cop to "Go Away" as you suggested, or that you have "The right to be skating here because your a taxpayer", maybe that works for you because you can through in the "My Daddy is a Cop", Where I come from, that dont fly.
Heres to more stories for you, both on Public Property.
Around 1973-4 a friend of mine Jeff Johnston (Who later went on to become a pro surfer and President of Town & Country Surfboards Inc.) were skating at the Santa Ana river bed, Along the banks of the river bed was a bike trail, the bike trail passed under a bridge and this is where we skated, here is a photo of the day we were skating, it was also used as evidence in the court.
So, as the story goes, Jeff and I were enjoying a day of skating, as you can see this was some pretty early days of skateboarding, Note the flat wood board with loose ball bearing eurathane wheels and bare feet. We kind of used the buddy system to skate here because of the wall that held up the bridge, If a bicyclist came from the other direction you couldnt see him until after he passed beyond the wall, so we always tried to have a spotter to warn of a pack of bikers or what not.
This day there was very little traffic, As I was standing at the top of the bike trail watching out for Jeff waiting my turn, A bicycleist came flying past the wall, Jeff was up on the bank begining his decent down, I yelled at both of them to look out, I think Jeff heard me, but with bare feet and really no way to stop coming down this huge bank I think he was praying that the guy on the bicycle seen him and would brake, The worst happened, They hit head on, Jeff was pitched in to the sand of the river bed with a broken leg from the impact, the guy on the bicycle was locked in his toe clips and cartwheeled head over heels, he slammed is head (no Helmet), I ran down the path Jeff was screaming in pain and couldnt get up, the guy on the bicycle went into convulsions and was floppy like a fish out of water while puking, he was on his back and started to choke on his vomit, I was all of about 13 or 14 yrs old, I dont know what made me do it but I turned the guy over on his side so as not to choke on his puke. This ditch was nowhere near civilization, I got on my board, charged down the bike trail, over the bridge and down the hill where there was a small run down house that some immigrant farm workers lived in, I rang the bell and pounder on the door yelling for help, They would not answer the door but I could here somebody inside, I started yelling HELP HELP HELP hoping they would understand that, the door opened a few inches and I could see a guy standing behind looking out trying to see what was wrong with me, I didint hesitate to try and explain to him what was going on, I pushed my way thru the door and ran thru the house until I could find a phone, all the while this Family is frieghtened at some white kid barging thru there house, a lady came at me with a broom right as I grabbed the phone in the kitchen and dialed O, this was pre 911, The operator came on and I told holds what had happened, the police station was right down the road as was the hospital, by the time I got back up and over the bridge they all arrived at the same time. I sat and watched my best friend get thrown in an ambulance, The guy on the bicycle turned out to be a friend of mine also, his family owned the bike shop accross the street from my track of homes.
Darryl the guy on the bike suffered severe brain damage and was fvcked up for life, Jeff had a broken leg.
Darryl's family sued:
The City of Fountain Valley
The County of Orange
The Orange County Flood Control District
Fountain Valley Hospital
Fountain Valley Police Dept
Orange County Sheriffs
My Friend Jeff
and Myself
Their contintion was that Everybody was neglegent in their kid getting handicapped for life.
I dont know what they got from any of the other defendents, but I know they got the max from my moms homeowners ins. $25,000, I was guilty of neglect on public property.
As I was being interviewed by the cops at the scene, this cop kept telling me that I really screwed up, and that we shouldnt have been skateboarding here and that had we not been, that all this wouldnt have happened, There was no signs saying no tresspassing or no skateboarding.
Had I known that I could have just told the Cop to Go Away, and that I have a right to skate here because its public property and I'm a tax payer, and that its a court issue now so leave me alone, I would have, I didint know that it was so easy to get off at the time, I really wish I could have had your advice then Sketch.
The next story was one of the scariest of my life, was leaving to go on tour with TSOL, I had to go up to the managers office in LA to get a credit card to take on tour with us, I stopped in the South Bay where I heard about an empty pool at an abandoned house, the house had become public domain through a street or freeway widening project?
It was just getting dark, I rolled into the driveway and snuck into the back to check out the pool, I took a few rides but it was just to dark and I had to go anyways, cool I got another notch in my belt with about pool #200, I pull out the driveway and get about a 1/4 mile down the street when I'm pulled over and surrounded by 3 cop cars, the cops all jump out with their guns drawn, I'm driving Mike Roche the bass players truck that has a shell and tinted windows, the cops could not see me, They were yelling for me to roll down the window and put my hands out the window, as I started to do so, the passenger door flung open and a cop had a gun to my head LIKE THAT!
I was pulled from the truck thrown on the ground and hand cuffed without any question, next thing I know I got cops barking down my throat asking me questions faster then I can answer them, When I finally explain who I'm and what I'm doing, and that they can look at my board in the back and that I was only there skateboarding the empty pool, they let me up to sit on the curb, until they could run my license they left the cuffs on, after all was cleared up, they apologized and explained that there was a girl raped and murdered in the abandoned house and they had been keeping an eye on it, I was just at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Had I known that I could have just told the Cops to Go Away, and that I have a right to skate here because its public property and I'm a tax payer, and that its a court issue now so leave me alone, I would have, I didnt know that it was so easy to get off at the time, I really wish I could have had your advice then Sketch.
What it comes down to is, Law or No Law, You dont tell a cop to go away because your a taxpayer and you have the right to skate somewhere whether it be public or private.
Skateboarding is not a crime, unless your breaking the law, regardless you have no right to skateboard and create a public nuisance or destroy public or private property, unless of course your daddy was a cop and you can use the excuses that Sketch has suggested. I have never used them, but next run in I have with a cop or some home owner or business owner, I'm gonna try it and see how far it gets me...................
Arab
PS, Telling cops to just go away reminds me of my kid when he was just a baby, If he was mad or didnt want to listen to you or see you, he would just close his eyes or cover his ears, I wonder if that would work with the cops?
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Social Commentary, etc.
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On 12/4/2003
Lenny
wrote in from
(205.188.nnn.nnn)
With all due respect for Pat Chewning (who gave a great post) MOST of us aren't blessed with such open laws towards skating in our communities, thereby the topic becomes much like "what's the best way to deal with/get around the potential legal hassles?" In many different contexts I've dealt with the police and find no cowardice in being respectful.
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"I've lost interest."
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On 12/4/2003
K-LEE
wrote in from
(129.24.nnn.nnn)
You took the words right out of my mouth.
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Arab
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On 12/4/2003
Sketchmaster
wrote in from
(4.22.nnn.nnn)
Arab: You obviously didn't catch my distinction between private property and public property. This forum is 90%+ social commentary and I've lost interest.
Big stokes to Pat Chewning for his post as I thought that was the original intent of this forum; To post actual cites, etc. and share ideas on how to beat the cites and knock the cites down. We don't need any lessons in cowering.
To the others who hinted towards my lack of potential social connection with police officers: My dad was a cop. I had to deal with him all the time and also with all of his crappy friends. You guys don't know dirt one about cops until you've had a bunch of them drinking all night at your house. I've put in more hours around cops than most of you guys combined. You need a serious dose of Tom Paine and Patrick Henry. Those guys knew where to tell the government to go when it outstepped its bounds. Leave the social commentary on the Guest Book Page.
Snoball: Pull a great big frontside layback grind so far out that you have to kick to get out of the bowl for me.
I say we all step aside and let guys like Chewning take over this page. The social commentary will go back and forth forever with little progress but people like him will increment the knowledge base.
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the 3 R's
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On 12/4/2003 Dave G
wrote in from
(65.177.nnn.nnn)
Respect Resposibility Rationalization Will get you farther than any other actions you can take! I've run from cops more times than I can count (as a youngster) It was a fun game to us all,I'm sure..But as full grown adults I can see the point of the cop w/ an itchy trigger finger! It' against the law to flee an officer of the law, and the big chase scenes usually end up w/ someone injured. Running isn't 1 of the R's..
We used to set up flaming slalom courses made from rags stuffed in cans soaked in lighter fluid ..(Not reccommended) And we did this on my street in Ohio..Cops 1st started harrasing us until the parents sitting on their porches stood up for us and said "they're not bothering anyone" and the heat was quickly cooled!
I'm sure if we were kick flippers grind curbs and maring peoples property it would've been a different outcome.
Respect others and they will respect you!! (usually)
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Running from cops, or not.
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On 12/4/2003
Haggy
wrote in from
(203.217.nnn.nnn)
I lived in Singapore as a teenager and skated all over the place all the time. Every weekend would be spent in the downtown area, as traffic and pedestrians emptied out and the streets and corporate plazas opened up to us. While Singapore did not have any laws on the books against skateboarding at the time (as far as I know) it was pretty much a ritual when the cops rolled into our favorite spots on weekends. Especially at one spot, the War Memorial, which is in the middle of a park. These pigs would take their cars and start driving them down the pathways and over dirt mounds to chase us, sirens blaring, what a scene as 50 skaters scattered all over the place, madly running across roads, cars screeching, people hiding all over the place. Hilarious. Once a squad of cops on scooters came in, with one guy proceeding to lose control and crash his bike through a bush. Great stuff. There was one infamous cop named Inspector Tan who displayed a torturous bend. When catching a skater he would make him run laps and do push-ups until he was exhausted, and he went specifically after the chubby kids. After a year or so of running all the time I decided I would just hang and play the "tourist". Politeness and a "oh, I'm just visiting Singapore, its a great country. Sorry I'm skating" invariably worked.
Now I live down under in Sydney and haven't had any problems except when setting a slalom course in the park. They are paranoid here about insurance issues...
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The Man
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On 12/4/2003 WesE
wrote in from
(208.59.nnn.nnn)
Kaylee’s and Hamm’s words are totally accurate. The very same things have worked for me. I’ve even gotten cops to change their mind about making me leave. A key thing is to not look them in eye during the initial question of “Who told you that you could skateboard here?” If you are honest, respectful, and give a sense of quiet discouragement when they they start giving you bad news, often they will see that you are not a criminal. “I’ve been doing this here for the past six months and all of the other officers have been fine with it” is a typical response of mine that sets the mood. Several slalom sessions were had by me at a local university, in which the final words of the campus security were “Well, skateboarding isn’t allowed here, but I’m not going to tell you to leave.” or “alright, you can keep on, just don’t get hurt” (At this point, I imform the officer that I always wear all of the proper safety gear). The fact that I am riding a “flat-board” plays a big part of it. I bet they are even glad that I am there, as they no longer have to worry about patrolling that specific parking lot as closely.
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Arab: Come to Portland Oregon when the law chases you from California
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On 12/3/2003
Pat Chewning
wrote in from
(12.224.nnn.nnn)
We are blessed in Oregon to have some reasonable laws and police when it comes to skateboarding. Some examples:
State law: Nothing prohibits skateboarding. It doesn't exist. Skateboards are in a no-man's land. Not a vehicle, not a pedestrian, not a bicycle.
Portland: Specifically allows skateboarding on streets. Designated "skateboard friendly" streets for commuting. Need to follow bicycle type rules: stay to right, follow traffic signs, yeild to pedestrians.
Oregon State University: Allows skateboarding on most sidewalks and streets. Must not speed, must yeild to pedestrians, no "stunts".
Washington County: I have applied for and received several cost-free "block party" permits for skateboard slalom races where we close the entire street for a whole day to run races.
Clark County (Washington, just across river from Oregon): Sheriff deputy called dispatch to find us a good skatboard site when the security guard was kicking us out of the park-and-ride parking lot.
Ridgefield Washington: Closed a street for us to run a race on, provided barricades. No cost, no insurance, nothing.
Mt Tabor Park: Upper streets are closed every day. Lower streets closed every Wed night. Longboarders bombing the hills every night. Slalom race practices without hassles.
New state law (Jan 1 2004): Skateboarders under the age of 16 on streets and other public property (parks, etc) must wear helmets. (Favorable interpretation: It is allowable to skateboard on streets and other public property, otherwise why would there be a law requiring a helmet when doing so?)
Who would have thought that Portland Oregon would be more law-friendly than San Diego?
section 84.12 (a) of the City of San Diego Municipal Code states: "It is unlawful for any person riding on roller skates or by means of coaster, skateboard, toy vehicle, or similar device, to go upon an open roadway in the City of San Diego, or upon the sidewalk or public plaza in any business district, or upon any inclined surface area of any City-owned or privately owned parkade ... "
By the way, the San Diego City Council is considering changing the law to be similar to Portland Oregon's law.
Read about it here: http://www.skateboarding.com/skate/skate_biz/article/0,12364,362207,00.html
Read about the Portland OR laws here: http://www.stc-law.com/pdf/skate_law.pdf
-- Pat Chewning
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Da Law...
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On 12/3/2003
Miko
wrote in from
(66.81.nnn.nnn)
Sketch - The urge to run and just get the hell away from the law is something I've felt many, many times. I hear ya when you say that trouble just "finds" certain individuals.
I would urge anyone feeling like fleeing, to consider the danger this poses to not only yourself, but others. Guns can kill, and maybe the cop you're running from has an itchy trigger finger that day.
Take a deep breath - forget about mojo - just calm yourself, and pretend you're talking to some familiar authority figure that you *almost* like. I know it's a stretch, but hang with it, show some class, and keep your wits. I find most, (not all), authorities will appreciate the effort, and even possibly slightly revise their opinion of us.
I was one of the older skaters in Santa Cruz in the mid 70's (23-24), and found myself almost constantly in the company of younger, and frequently underage kids, all hanging in various illegal pools, and of course there was nearly always beer and reefer there as well, (whether I was directly involved or not).
Being the oldest brought me threats of citations for "Contributing to the delinquincy of a minor" a couple times, as well as threats to hold me liable for damages to the pool. This happend to me a couple times in Orange County as well.
Unlike Arab, I never had a gun pointed at me, was never arrested or even ticketed thankfully. And yes, I HAVE run like hell from the law in the past, and have fond memories of the adrenaline rush of those escapades, however dangerous they may have been. I just don't believe they do our cause any good at this point, and we need a change of public perception badly!
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Arab
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On 12/3/2003 Dave G
wrote in from
(207.69.nnn.nnn)
DAMN Arab!! I just got home from poker and started checking up on this thread!! I gotta go throw salt down so I can get my kidz to skool tomorrow! But I gotta read all this ssshtuff!
Best of vote for sure
Dave G
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great post arab
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On 12/3/2003 hugh r
wrote in from
(66.53.nnn.nnn)
Gets a best of from me... HR
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The Law
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On 12/3/2003
Arab
wrote in from
(24.24.nnn.nnn)
K-lee-Skating Albakurky with you guys is not only a privilege, but its an honor, a blessing, a blast and a s#@! load of illegal fun, I've been skating Albakurky ditches since about 1981, whenever I was on tour and going thru Alb it was mandatory to stop and skate, mostly skated 4 walls, or 4 hills ? whatever you guys call it, I've been run out of that ditch by the cops at least 4 times over the years.
My first brush with the law was around 1975-6, Me and 8 other guys were skating the Euclid U (note: It is called the U not the V, some magezine called the V one time and ever since people have called it that, those that skated it in the early days called it the U like EUclid). Anyways after about a half hour of skating a cop drove by and noticed us doing our illegal activity, as he swooped a u turn we all hid under the bridge, the cop pulled up and was yelling at us to come out, I was 15 years old and scared s#@!less, next thing I know the cop decides he is gonna come in after us, as he takes a couple steps down the bank he slips on his shiney shoes and eats it down to the bottom, we were all laughing at this point until we seen that he had drawn his gun. The cop hauled all 9 of us in the back of his car to the Fullerton PD, some of the guys were 18 and let go on their O/R, the rest lived in the area and their parents came and got them, I lived more then a half hour away, in those days there was no such thing as pagers and cell phones, I sat in a cell by myself for near 6 hours until they could track down my mom to come get me.
I dont remember any of the guys telling the cop to go away as Sketch has suggested, After all there was No Trespassing signs posted, I dont think my mom tried to pull the old, I'm a tax payer and my taxpayer dollars pays your salary and built those ditches. Thats some funny s#@!. I'm gonna remember to use that on a cop next time he has a gun pointed at my face. Infact I wish I had known that when 10 Swat team memebers stormm trooped into my house in 1980 to arrest me for sales of a controlled substance(Cocaine), Thats a whole nother story but I wonder if the , "I'm a tax payer and you are in my house, put those M-16 and shotguns down and take off those silly masks and get out of my house" HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!, Well I decided instead to get arrested and let the judicial system take care of the problem as Sketch has suggested, $25 grand for a lawyer in 1980 was a s#@!load of money, to this day my bust was the largest in the Cities History, Because of my driving record and with near a dozen Warrants for my arrest the first 3 years I drove, the Judge felt that I was a flight risk and set my bail at $250.000, my lawyer got it down considerably and I was released. So I'm involved in this court issue now and my sentance was 1 year in jail, But I'm a tax payer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Back to skateboarding and the law, Not long after my little escapade at the Euclid U a friend of mine I went to high school with told me his neighbors pool was empty, so we go over there and jump the fence and skate, the guy that lives there is a Senior Lineman on the Varsity football team, he comes home and finds us there, I thought the guy was gonna kill us, he called the cops and Barry and I went to Jail, I should have used the "I'm a taxpayer defense, but I didint know Sketch then.........
Lucky for me that was my first offense in that town and they let me go to my mom 4 hours later when they found her.
On another occasion I was involved in the same scenario with my friend Greg Nelson (Aka Fuzzhead, he was the guy that introduced me to TA and got me on Alva skates around 1977ish). We were driving down the street and seen this blue hose coming out of a gate, we looked over the fence and seenm a freshly drained pool, mot seeing a car in the driveway, we decided we would check it out, we knocked on the door just to be sure no one was home, so we proceded thru the gate and finished drying up the pool, it was a beutiful right hand little kidney, we got a few runs in and I thought I seen somebody look thru the curtains, I told Fuzz and he said dont worry, he was older and cooler then me so I just didint bother, not but a few minutes later there was 3 cops with there guns drawn coming from 3 different directions into the yard, BUSTED!!!!, I wished could have used the "I'm a taxpayer defense" but I was to scared, This time the police were not to kind, this was my second offense in this town for the same thing, I was held til my mom could come get me, this time I was cited and had to appear in court, I got community service and a big fat warning.
For years I have had guns pointed at me for just skateboarding, not only by cops but by angry homeowners or business owners, Probably the scariest time was at Nude Bowl out near Palm Springs, I was moving some furniture for my mom who had recntly moved to PS, I decided since I was going that way I would take my board and hit up the Nude before hand, I drove my Brothers 4x4 up the gnarley hill with my moms antiques in the back, anybody that has ever been there knows how bad the dirt road was, so I get up there and there is nobody around, I jump in the pool and take some rides, I'm sitting in the shallow when I think I hear a gunshot, I stand up to take a look around, I see nothing so I go about skating somemore, next thing I know I hear it again, Then again, this time the bullet hit the ruins of the house above the pool, I'm s#@!ting my pants at this time, I run to the truck and haul ass down the hill, I dont know where the shooting was coming from and i wasnt gonna stick around to find out. Nude was off the beaten path in the hills and I wasnt about to die with out somebody knowing. I made it down the hill with my heart beating 100mph.
Somebody was sending me a message load and clear, I wished I had a Bullhorn so I could have yelled out to the person shooting at me that "I was a Taxpayer".
One of the best pools I have ever skated (the San Juan Pool Aka Alva Bowl) was at an old house that was uninhabited, one day there was about 15 of us skating, a cop snuck in thru the front of the house with his gun drawn, Its amazing how much authority someone has when they have a gun. This cop wrote every one of us a ticket for trespassing, I wished I had known that I could use the “I’m a taxpayer defense” but I just wasn’t in my right mind at the time. So I let it become a court issue and I got off lucky with a small fine and a slap of the hand and a waste of a lot of time.
Heres a good one, Waldo Autry and I learned how to luge togther back around 1995ish, we use to ride at this hill called GMR, its 9 miles long with 122 turns. So one day Waldo is jamming down the hill, he’s almost to the bottom, he cuts to the inside of a hairpin turn doing about 40 mph, now he is on the wrongside of the road staring a CHP square in the headlights, Waldo dodges the car and proceeds down the hill in hopes of making it to his vehicle and drive away before he gets caught, The cop had to make a u turn on this small 2 lane mountain road, Waldo was long gone, There was guys on motorcycles that could barely keep up with luges on that hill, Waldo makes it down to his car and is trying to make a quick getaway, Almost, but he gets caught. He almost died under the Bumper of a cop car. The Cop was LIVID, all he could do was write waldo up for wreckless endangerment or something like that, Waldo got off lucky with a small fine and his life intact. I’m sure Had he known about the “Tax Payer Defense” he wouldn’t even had gotten the ticket.
Oh well……………… 230;
Skateboarding is a dangerous sport, in order to have fun most ofton then not you have to break the law to do so. I’m not gonna tell some Cop, Business Owner or Home Owner that I have a right to trespass and deface and damage their property because I’m a taxpayer, and if they got a problem with that they can take it up with the courts.
I’m glad Skateboarding is illegal in certain areas where I live, If it wasn’t then skateboarders would destroy everything in their wake just to have some fun, I eat at a killer little resturaunt on main st by the beach at least 2 a month, If the law by the city to protect citizens and businesses from the constant nuisance and destruction by skateboarders wasn’t emposed, I wouldn’t eat there, The last thing I want to do is watch and listen to some kid grind the curb or bench next to where I’m eating, I don’t need some kid to lose his board into a crowd of people and hurt me or my family.
It is not your right to skateboard where ever you damn well please because you are a taxpayer , Just like it is not your right to play on the freeway, laws are made to protect people from not only themselves but from others.
I have broken the law many a times to have some fun on my skateboard and I will probably continue to, That is not my right, and I’m responsible for whatever happens because of my actions, If I get shot by a cop because I’m trying to run from him. Damn just because I’m a taxpayer doesn’t give me the right to skateboard wherever I want? If I get beat up by a homeowner for trespassing, I deserve it. If I get a ticket for grinding a curb in front of a business, I deserve it. The Law sez so!
I got no problem with somebody telling me I cant skate here, If its illegal, I’m trespassing, the law sez I’m not allowed or I’m being a nuisance and bothering somebody then I’m not going to skate. And I sure as hell am not going to tell them its my right because I’m a taxpayer.
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VA Beach
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On 12/3/2003 rob
wrote in from
(24.9.nnn.nnn)
I have a framed ticket and a copy of the VB sk8 law. I was warned by a cop that I needed a leash and laughed explaining in my years of sk8ing and being in shops I had never heard of such a thing. I then went behind a 7/11 and found a piece of rope which I tied to my front truck and wrist. I was then stopped by 2 cops on horses who called for backup I eventually was surrounded by lots of cops including my leash law cop who ignored me while being written a ticket. After I recieved my ticket I followed the pigs shouting obsenities while they got in their cars ignoring me. I plead my case in court and was told the cops are always right. That was 1993 since then I don't think you can sk8 East of Pacific Ave. though I have poached every part of that boardwalk many times. Those early morning sunrises are pretty safe. Lucky I wasn't on PCP or they would have beat me to death. Don't sk8 where they say not to and the older you get the more respect you get but there's a reason for this new forum...cops can be dicks about sk8ing and have been for years. Sure obey the law but something about a sk8board says your a violent drug using graffiti artist who spits on old people but that's only part of what we do.
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R-E-S-P-E-C-T
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On 12/3/2003
Hamm
wrote in from
(199.41.nnn.nnn)
Outstanding post K-LEE!!!!!! Miko too.
I live in urban San Diego; city blocks, alley's, sidewalks, pedestrians, the whole deal. I skate everywhere all the time and never have problems. Its simple. Avoid old people, small children and mothers with kids. See a cop,pick up your board, MAKE EYE CONTACT, smile & wave. My unoffical research has shown me that 90% of the time when a cop stops you its because someone has gotten hurt, terrorized, or there are repeated complaints in THAT area. If you take the time to LISTEN to the cop while he explains that, you'll both walk way from the expierience unscathed. In my case, a slalom or longboard combined with my age usually starts a positive dialouge with the cop.
Of course there are always exceptions. Every city has the Monster truck driving,pin dick,wife-beating, stereotypical macho-prick cop with something to prove. He's easy to avoid, don't skate around donut shops.
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Privelege
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On 12/3/2003
Sketchmaster
wrote in from
(4.22.nnn.nnn)
K-LEE: Skating is inherently dangerous. According to your premise all skating is a privelege even on property that is owned by the skater in question since you believe that the government has some type of responsibility for your personal actions regarding your own safety. The intended use arguement is full of holes. In no way does skating a ditch diminish its efficacy as a flood control device. My tax dollars do not fund transmission lines (corporate welfare subsidies excepted). They are private property.
A good example of the ditch "intended use" arguement is "The Wedge" in Scottsdale, Arizona. From day one the cops would hassle you there; Right up to the day the "no skateboarding" signs came down and the city began advertising it as a recreational feature. I've used the maintenance roads that run parallel to the irrigation ditches here for years as a footpath. This was always "illegal"; Right up to the day the "No Trespassing" signs came down and the paths were being touted as great places for you to walk and bike. Both of these examples illustrate the arbitrary and capricious nature of the governments anointing of given structures with specific use provisions. You'll find that a lot of the government's legal fictions don't pass muster when they wind up in court. That's because this country was established on the premise of individual rights where rights do not emanate from government but are inherent within you. There needs to be a legitimate reason before there is even any motion regarding infringement on a right. Individual safety surely does not qualify.
It's good that your post got back to the legal point which is the intent of this forum. A social commentary forum might well be just as well justified since that is what the main content of most of these posts concern. (I'm more guilty of this than most.)
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Ditchriding privileges
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On 12/3/2003
K-LEE
wrote in from
(64.106.nnn.nnn)
Sketch,
Why is ditchriding a privilege? That's an easy one. Ditches are built for FLOOD CONTROL, and nothing else. No one is ever legally allowed into them for safety reasons. Too many kids have died (at least here in ABQ) playing in them when a flash flood occurs. It is illegal to skate, ride a bike, hang out, walk your dog, or even just stand in the ditches here. It's not like they're built for us to use like a road, parking garage, or boardwalk would be. They are built to keep rushing water from destroying our homes and city property. Just because your tax dollars went to pay for power transmission lines, do you think you have the right to go hanging off of them like a monkey? Hell no. It's dangerous to you and could damage the power lines, disrupting their main purpose. That's the difference between ditches and sidewalks. Besides, the construction crew didn't have to make them the shape that they are. They could be almost square and unskatable. There could be (and are in some cases) chain link fences around them. They could be lined with broken glass and have 5" expansion joints with a super-raked finish, or even made of dirt, and they'd still do the job they were intended for. But no, they unintentionally decided to make them very skate friendly and the cops for the most part look the other way when we "trespass" unless we disturb the people that live next to the ditches. And that, my friend, is a definite privilege. Ask anyone who has actually BEEN to ABQ ditches, and they'll tell you the same, I'm sure.
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R-E-S-P-E-C-T
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On 12/3/2003 Sketchmaster
wrote in from
(4.22.nnn.nnn)
K-LEE: Why do you consider it a privelege for me to skate a ditch that I paid for?
To everyone else: The police are only authorized to enforce current laws. If none exist regarding the context in which he is harassing you then tell him to go away. If he wants to cite you and has no code to cite then what? If he wants to stretch the legislation he has at his disposal then it likely won't hold in court. That's right. Make it a court issue. How many times do you think the courts want to deal with this when there is no property damage, injury, threat or legitimate penal violation? If they confiscate your property then high tail it to that jurisdiction's Risk Management office and file a "lis pendens". This is a demand that the confiscated property not be destroyed or disposed. As far as respect goes: Too many people get too much. I ran out years ago freely applying it to anyone who wanted it. I'm all out; Especially for police officers who are stepping far beyond the mission for which I pay them. I'm not their slave and I'm not going to act like it either.
Disrespectfully yours, The Master of Sketch
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Add a Law
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On 12/3/2003 george g.
wrote in from
(159.87.nnn.nnn)
It should be mandatory that every child and adult own or at least know how to properly handle a skateboard. Tell the kids if they find a skateboard in a empty lot, or find an old one in a junk store to find an adult and tell them. Any empty pools, new ditches or newly paved hills, immediately inform someone who cares.
Remember kids, when self ignition occurs, STOP, DROP and ROLL. When problems in life overwhelm you, Surf, Skate-Relate (OK I stole that from the LCB but I don't think they will mind)
This problem isn't going to go away. Go underground, when caught be polite. We were all kids once and we all tore some stuff up, or at least borrowed a bunch of plywood. There may be some constitutionality issues. But, then again this will be state specific, county or city specific, it will depend on the local government. It will amaze you what some cities can and do get away with. A few concerned parents at a city council meeting can make a difference. Oh, you can march in with 50 to 100 kids carrying skateboards that definately gets their attention! I actually participated in attending a meeting a few years ago, 1969 Hobie in one hand and a longboard in the other. We filled city council with skaters. Be respectful and get a little in return. It rocked!
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R-E-S-P-E-C-T
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On 12/3/2003
K-LEE
wrote in from
(129.24.nnn.nnn)
Although I've been restricting my posts to the Banks & Ditches forum due to lack of "forum time" this semester, I felt that I had some input to offer on this subject. I have been skating in the streets and ditches of Albuquerque for well over 7 years now. I have been stopped or asked to leave by cops and security guards more times than I can count. But, after all these years, I have never been ticketed, arrested, or had my board confiscated. The reason is respect.
Some of the laws being mentioned here remind me of UNM's own policy regarding skateboards and how it has changed over the years. When I first came to school here, skateboards were strictly banned in any shape or form. Even before my first classes had started, I decided to skate around campus and get a feel for it. I remember sitting on a bench holding my board in my lap when one of the particularly militant campus cops approached me and told me that I had to leave campus because of my skateboard. I explained to him that I was new and just carrying my skateboard around campus because that was how I got there. He then said, "I don't care if you're riding it, carrying it, or flying on it. You need to leave NOW!" I got up and left as quickly as possible.
Later that year I was stopped when sessioning with some buddies (we were grinding a waxed curb, street punk style) and told that I could have my scholarship taken away, put on academic probation, or just be kicked out of school if I was ever caught skating on campus again. Needless to say, for a while after that I just skated as fast as possible anytime I actually saw a campus cop.
The next memorable one was actually an APD bike cop on Central Avenue right across from school. While skating on the sidewalk (pure transportation this time) a bike cop rode past me and told me to "walk it". I considered the fact that HE was riding a big bulky bike on the same sidewalk and though him a hypocrite. I responded with a laugh and gave him a hot pursuit. A way down the sidewalk it got real crappy and rough, and I knew there was no way I was going to be faster than him on that stuff. So I just sat down and waited for him. By the time he caught up with me he was foaming at the mouth and saying things like "I bet you think it's funny, huh?!" Then he called for backup. He then proceeded to ask me what I did for a living and stuff like that. I handed him my student ID and told him that I was doing undergraduate research and working towards my BS in Mathematics. By the time the backup arrived I had doled out enough respect to get some back. He let me off with a warning and told me to keep up the good schoolwork and basically shook my hand, like he was a proud father or something.
The biggest run in I ever experienced was when I was transporting through campus with a buddy of mine. To make a LLLOONNNGG story short my friend busted an ollie right in front of a pedestrian and scared him. A campus cop was nearby and saw the whole thing. He suggested to my friend that he walk his board. My friend has never been one to hide his emotions, so he told the cop off. The cop proceeded to brutalize him in a way reminiscent of Rodney King. It wasn't all that bad, but the cop misunderstood my friend's attempt to explain himself as resisting arrest. At one point two cops were actually sitting on my friend in a dog pile, kicking him and twisting his arm. I had to stand there and watch. By the time the backup arrived, I had been detained as well, although I had hid my board in a bush long before that and was a pedestrian as far as the coppers were concerned. While we were being detained, a longboarder rolled past. I yelled "There goes another one, you'd better stop him!" His response was "We don't stop the flatboarders [sic]. They can skate as long as they don't do stunts." This was news to me. But I checked into it and sure enough, the policy had changed since the time that I was a freshman. This incident ended with my friend's charges being dropped due to "excessive force". We actually ran into that same cop a short while later, but I was on a banana board and was let go. The fact that some of these campus cops can't fill out a report properly kept my friend from getting busted a second time. But the memory of the brutality still lingered.
My skating sessions have been pretty copless since then. A few times we've had the man come by our slalom sessions, which are held in a public street by a public park. The cop just watches for a while, tells us to have a nice day, and then drives on. I haven't had an incident on campus since I've been aware of the new policy. I just ride my Bozi GS around campus and the lack of kicktail and grind marks keeps the man off me. I wonder if towns like Cape May are going to progress through a similar policy change as they realize that not ALL skaters destroy property and endanger the public.
What is the moral of this long and drawn out post? Give respect and act dumb. When a cop or security guard tells me that I cannot skate somewhere, I act surprised and shocked that the harmless activity that I'm engaging in actually causes problems for other people. I thank them for informing me, and proceed to leave. Most cops aren't going to come down hard on you if you seem like a first time offender or that you're new to town. I honestly feel that the only reason my friend got beaten that night instead of me was that I skated away while he stopped to mouth off to the cop. Whether or not skateboarding is illegal, you need to realize that we share this world with a lot of other people who have different interests and perceptions of reality. Courtesy has its place in all of life's moments, not just when you're skating. If you have an air of courtesy and respect, you'll usually get the same back.
When it comes to doing something obviously illegal like ditch skating, I agree with ARAB. Go in there KNOWING it's illegal, and act accordingly. Don't act like you have some right to do it. I honestly don't think that us ditch racers have a GOD GIVEN RIGHT to hold outlaw ditch races at the Bear. I think that it's a privilege that the cops look away long enough for us to do our thing and get out of there. And there's a lot of truth to the saying "Take only pictures, leave only urethane tracks."
But I can also see Snoball’s point as well. Growing up in small towns south of here, skating around town was my way of having fun, exercising, expressing my self, and exploring new territory. I had no skatepark, pool, ramp, or anything like that. I was lucky to have a good hill, some sidewalks, and a handful of low curbs. I was told that I could be “written up” for doing what I did, so I just skated where the old people weren’t. I never understood the idea of being a spectacle while you skate. It’s something I like to do at 4am when NOBODY’S around. Then you have the streets to yourself. I don’t even like going to the skatepark when it’s crowded.
So, I feel the best way to handle all this is to 1) skate in vacant, empty places when no one else will harass you, 2) dole out as much respect as you can stomach, and 3) act as if you’re a law abiding citizen partaking in the nations newest pastime and not some criminal out to destroy urban eyesores and evade the man. Skateboarding is illegal only if you skate like a criminal. There’s an ever growing populace of us that want to present it as a fun healthy alternative to mainstream sports, while still holding on to skating’s outlaw roots. If we can make that aspect of skateboarding visible to the public, we may just get the respect we desire.
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RE: Articulate Debate
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On 12/3/2003
Sketchmaster
wrote in from
(4.22.nnn.nnn)
Chris B: Yes the legislature can approve any legislation it chooses. No it does not require any approval from the courts. This is all part of the separation of powers. The Constitution did not declare anything regarding an ultimate authority so we were locked in a loop regarding constitutionality issues. The Supreme Court decided in Marbury vs. Madison that it has the ultimate authority to decide what the law is and whether or not it passes muster. This is still widely controversial today. It is a serious breach of the concept of separation of powers. So far as I know, those of us who recognize this as a breach have yet to provide a position that solves for the problem the Court was facing at that time.
The short story: Legislatures have review panels that surmise whether or not legislation will pass muster. The legislature can act as it sees fit. If the courts don't like it they act reactively (and not proactively).
Miko: Your assertions fail to address a very serious issue; Whether or not an individual possesses a "magnetic personality". I chalk this up to "funky mojo" since I don't understand how it works but I can assure there are many of us that attract trouble without wanting it. It reminds me of a phrase I coined several years ago when I would get bad vibes and would want everyone to clear out so we didn't get our skulls cracked: "We're having way too much fun. Someone somewhere is p*ssed and is working out a plan for their revenge." Those interested in this subject should read Mark MacYoung's book on E&E.
Don't forget that many of us were forged by hard times and a few years of being left alone aren't going to wipe it all away. I'm sure there are still plenty of children out there getting forged today even though things have mellowed out a lot. We need to cut them some slack.
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articulate debate
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On 12/3/2003 Chris B
wrote in from
(204.78.nnn.nnn)
Yeah Lenny, but that's because of the crowd this website attracts. I've read more articles on parts engineering, drafting and aerodynamics here than i did in college...you may not have the same tone on a website like Skull and Bones which attracts a more "intense" crowd, aye?...
Interesting that it all seems to boil down to this:1) The laws are pretty consistent city to city, and are there to keep kids from destroying property with their skateboards, more than preventing them from simply riding skateboards. 2)Every towns going to have one or two gung-ho cops who take it to extremes, but for the most part, they're OK with it. 3)If you treat the guards/cops with respect, or at least kindness, it seems to get returned to you and in some cases they leave you alone. 4)It's best to skate where there are NOT crowd or cars (should go without saying). 5)"Cack" is a word. 6)Laws that ban skating are overkill if taken literally, (of this i will agree). And finally, 7)a law that makes it illegal to have a skateboard (literally a toy in many cases) in your posession in a public place, is quite possibly unconstitutional. Is the cape May issue a city oridinance or a law?....can a city PASS a law without approval from the courts?
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Much needed forum
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On 12/3/2003
Lenny
wrote in from
(64.12.nnn.nnn)
Reading this and seeing how quickly it's growing makes me stop and ponder. My big beef with public perception of skaters/skating in general is that we're a bunch of inarticulate goofs (re-enforced by shows like "54321" and "Viva La Bam"), but seeing the level of articlate debate on this subject, one that most would assume we'd see exactly the same, is really refreshing.
Just a side-thought.
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